Return of the Revenge of the Son of Saying Hi to Josiah!

[Saber Knight]

Hey.

Saber, this might be too personal a question but I was thinking about it as I had to sit through yet another youth group meeting at a church for a religion I've for a long time been detached from. I know you used to be (still are?) Christian, and that you came out of the closet a few months ago. Did you end up renouncing your religion because of that? Was it difficult for you to follow something that told you that what you are is wrong? I sit in church and I hear my peers make jokes about gay people and I can't stop thinking about how awful it would be to be in that position. I mean, I find it pretty awful having to put up my facade every week, and having to teacher these little kindergarten kids something I don't believe in.

See, my church is exceedingly liberal. We've had a gay pastor before. I honestly didn't really think about religion too hard when I came out, but I do think about religion often. I doubt a lot, but I also believe you can't have faith without doubt. Faith without doubt, to me, is just blind obedience. Thankfully, I've never really had to deal with a truly homophobic atmosphere. I'm blessed enough to come from a town that, while I wouldn't call it gay-friendly, at least accepts homosexuals/bisexuals (even though that acceptance is really just generally trying to pretend that they don't exist, but never being hostile or anything). Ithaca, though, is wonderfully liberal and accepting. Back to religion, I don't consider myself a super religious person. I bounce between agnostic and not on a regular basis. I believe that the Bible is just a book of teachings, not the word of God. I find it ridiculous that people still cling to the homosexual thing when they ignore all that stuff about clothing being made from different materials and planting different seeds in a field together. The world has changed a lot in 2000 years. Religion shouldn't completely stagnate.

Well, that's my two cents on the matter.

Also, I did Relay for Life last night, and there was a Jewish a capella group all dressed up for Purim and it was great! There was also a lot of my ex walking laps with her ex and them holding hands, which was less than great. Then there was 2 AM zumba with bandies, and that was great! Then there's the knowledge that I have 3 prelims (midterms) this week along with an audition, which is less than great. But I got to march marching-band style for the first time since November, which was great! Then I also made the stupidest decision of my life Friday night which resulted in me losing my dorm key, which was far far far far far far less than great.

Do ALL of the soul searching!

[Silver]

Huh... y'know, I never thought about that. According to the Bible, gays are a no, but lesbians are fine... you could make the argument that that's sexist, and since there's equal rights we should discriminate equally... but when has the Bible ever said anything about equal rights for women? It's pretty darn sexist, actually.

But that's what's in Leviticus, anyway, and I've yet to meet a Christian who cares about any of the laws in Leviticus except for that one. Didn't Paul also say something about the matter though? I seem to recall him specifically saying that any kind of homosexuality was "Unnatural". I don't know the exact verse, I've just heard it thrown around. And I suppose that could have been a mistranslation or something.

Personally, I'd rather throw out everything Paul said than the entire OT... That Paul guy really needed to get laid. Seriously! He went on and on about how sex is bad, and how if you're married you'll be distracted from your faith, and you should get divorced if your partner isn't Christian. Doesn't that all just scream "Bitter Virgin"? Or, going with the theory that he was a widower, "My wife died, no one else wants me, I'm not getting any so NEITHER SHOULD YOU". That's what Paul was like.

...To any particularly religious folk, I apologize for the blasphemy. But come on, there's no way someone so preoccupied by sex wasn't thinking about it.

[Josiah]

Hi! Personally, I think Christians should pay more attention to all the laws in Leviticus... But I agree that it's kind of ridiculous to just cherry pick the ones they like and throw out the rest. Either you believe they're all still valid or you don't.

On womens' rights in the Bible, keep in mind there are a lot of prominent female figures in the Bible (some of whom weren't even married). Also, there were a whole lot of laws given to prevent husbands from mistreating their wives. There was also a law saying that daughters could inherit their family's estates if there was no male heir. Not quite equal rights by modern standards, but extremely revolutionary for that time period. There's a lot of things that the Bible didn't outright ban, such as slavery, because that big of a change would have just been too much for people of that time to adjust to, they'd have probably ignored it entirely. Instead, it put in a lot of laws to make things better and sort of get them started on the path to complete change. Slavery, for example, had so many laws about proper treatment, letting the slaves go free after so many years, and the like, that the whole practice pretty much died out in ancient Isreal after a while because it just wasn't worth it.

On the lack of a anti-lesbian restriction, I've heard a few opinions on why that is.
1: God just doesn't have anything against it (I've heard a number of different potential reasons).
2: Lesbianism didn't really exist at the time so it wasn't an issue that needed to be addressed.
3. Since polygamy was allowed (though rather discouraged), there was nothing to prevent a man from sleeping with multiple wives at once and...yeah.

On Paul, I do have my suspicions that the guy was a bit chauvenistic and he did say he thought it was better if people stayed single (and by extension celibate). That said, he was also one of those brilliant people who, as a result, tends to talk in ways that are hard to understand for other people. Heck, even Peter said it was very easy for people to misunderstand Paul's writings.

His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It's even easier to do these days when we're so far removed from the culture and context of the time. If you do some serious research into who Paul was writing to and when, his letters start to make a lot more sense. Paul also mentions a number of woman who he clearly respects, some of whom hold positions of authority in their congregations.

On my personal views, I don't think gay relationships are right (because of the Bible). No real opinion on lesbianism, but I certainly don't think it's ideal. That said, I've known gay and lesbians people in the past I don't attack or mock anyone for their choices either.

[Saber Knight]

Hey.

In my personal views, I don't think gay relationships are right (because of the Bible). No real opinion on lesbianism, but I certainly don't think it's ideal. That said, I've known gay and lesbians people in the past I don't attack or mock anyone for their choices either.

I just find religion... difficult sometimes. I just so believe that love is love. Doesn't matter if it happens to between a man and a woman or a man and a man or a woman and a woman. The reason I'm bisexual is because making an emotional connection with the other person is just so much more important to me than anything else, gender included. I hate when people think I'm bi just because I'm some sex-crazed individual--it's really just the opposite. I don't think anyone has a right to tell two consenting adults in love that their love is wrong because of their sex. It's just something I so fervently believe. It's the one subject I keep from debating with friends because my opinions on this will never change. I have a very religions friend who, while she accepts the fact that I'm bi and some of our other friends are gay, still thinks it's wrong and is firmly against gay marriage. I just... love is love, I don't know what else to say. If you're blessed enough to fall in love with someone and have them be in love with you... goddammit, you should be able to hang onto that.

[Blastotoise]

Derailing the discussion to say Hey. And good luck to everyone in KotF

[Josiah]

Hi! Though Saber, why does love between two people of the same gender have to go that far? You can love someone and be really close to them without sex or marriage, it's called friendship. The gay/lesbian issue is really about sexual attraction, not love (though a lot of people don't want to admit that). If loving someone enough means you should be able to marry and have sex with them, you can use that same arguement to support a whole lot of far less accepted practices including polygamy, incest, pedophillia, and beastiality. If you're ok with all of those, that's one thing. If you're not, then you're admitting that there's a point when love isn't enough.

[PoisonWing14]

Moi,

Hey there, stranger. Haven't seen you around for a bit. Good luck in KotF as well.

As for the discussion at hand, as an atheist, I honestly just don't really care about religion all that much (and because of that, I also don't really care about whatever religion says about who I can or cannot love. I'll decide that for myself, thank you very much). I think people can believe whatever they want to, as long as they aren't using it to hurt or control anyone else. And, that's that. I'm not one of those people that believe religion should be destroyed or anything (I do have my own ideas about religion, but I tend to keep them to myself, unless someone asks me about them). To me, as long as everyone is generally happy with their life, I'm fine.

So, what's going on in my life? Not much, as per the usual. My new computer is pretty much all ready, but I still can't connect to the internet on it. I'm either going to need to get another wireless USB adapter, or a really long ethernet cable.

Oh, and I bought some snacks on amazon a while ago. They're called Jaffa Cakes, and they're so gosh-dang delicious. I wish I could find them at stores in my area, but unfortunately, I have not been able to. Oh well. I guess I'll just get some more amazon gift cards until I do.

So, that's it for me. Stay radical people! Peace off!

[Saber Knight]

Hey.

Hi! Though Saber, why does love between two people of the same gender have to go that far? You can love someone and be really close to them without sex or marriage, it's called friendship. The gay/lesbian issue is really about sexual attraction, not love (though a lot of people don't want to admit that). If loving someone enough means you should be able to marry and have sex with them, you can use that same arguement to support a whole lot of far less accepted practices including polygamy, incest, pedophillia, and beastiality. If you're ok with all of those, that's one thing. If you're not, then you're admitting that there's a point when love isn't enough.

There's an intimacy beyond friendship that does not necessarily mean sex. It's staying up late at night and holding each other and not saying a word and not needing to. It's the way your heart flips when you open your eyes in the morning and you see them peacefully sleeping beside you. It's studying an absurd amount and glancing up from your notes to see them smiling at you from across the table and having them reach their hand across to hold yours. It's the knowledge that you can have just had the worst day and be so scared of the world and they will be there to hold you and kiss you, and you know you'd be there to hold them, and the world will just seem right again. While I don't believe I was ever in love with my ex (I try to stray away from the word love as it actually applies to my life because, to me, it's so important yet people so often mistake other feelings for it. I want to save the words "I love you" for when I actually really figure out what love is), our relationship was far, far more than sex-based. I mean, we fooled around plenty, but never actually had sex. I also stated consenting adults, which rules out pedophilia and bestiality, and, to be honest, the only problem I see with incest is the genetic mutations it can cause. I do not support it by any means, but still. Polygamy is also a practice I do not agree with, but if all involved parties are in love and agree with this decision... I mean, I guess it can work for them? I'm not too sure I think you can be romantic-in-love-with more than one person at once, though, but by no means do I really understand love. Sure, for some homosexual people, it could be more about sexual attraction, but I still don't think anyone has a right to interfere when it is, once again, two consenting adults.

And when you're with your someone it just seems so bizarre that there are people out there that think this--this pure happiness--could possibly be wrong simply because you're of the same gender. For so long, I figured I'd never come out as bi because I'd just push away all my feelings for girls because I'd be too scared to ever act on them, but once I actually did, I couldn't remember why I had been so scared--it all just felt so natural. God, when we were together, being with her just felt like the most right thing in the world. It made far more sense than any of the other insanity in the world. I'm pretty much over her now with only a few lingering feelings, and even if she were to change her mind, I still wouldn't get back together with her, but that doesn't change the fact that that was how I had felt with her when we were together.

[Josiah]

Hi! But you can spend a lot of time around someone of the same gender, really care for them, and really like having them around, even live with them, but unless you add sex to the mix (or sexual contact, even if it doesn't go quite all the way), what you have is a really close friendship. There's no debate over weather two people of the same gender should be allowed to hug, live together, or even share a bed. I mean, heterosexual people do that type of thing often enough. It's not until you add sexual attraction and sexual acts to the mix that you have a homosexual relationship.

Regardless though, keep in mind that you can disagree with something without interfering with it. Like I said, I think that gay relationships, at least, are wrong but I don't go around yelling at or otherwise bothering gay people. If they actually ask my opinion, I'll politely give it, but that's about it. I am against gay marriage...but I'd be ok with them getting a civil union or some such so they can get the tax break (which is really the only thing an official marriage gives that you can't get other ways).

[Silver]

Regardless though, keep in mind that you can disagree with something without interfering with it. Like I said, I think that gay relationships, at least, are wrong but I don't go around yelling at or otherwise bothering gay people. If they actually ask my opinion, I'll politely give it, but that's about it. I am against gay marriage...but I'd be ok with them getting a civil union or some such so they can get the tax break (which is really the only thing an official marriage gives that you can't get other ways).

All right, ok. I mostly agree with this. If you want my opinion, I don't think gay people should be able to get married. I also don't think atheists should be able to get married. "Marriage" is something you do in a church, with a priest, swearing oaths on Bibles and what not. It's a religious ceremony, and that's all. Or at least, that's what it should be... I really hate that it's completely a government thing now. If you ask me, the state shouldn't be able to tell you if you're married or not. Here's what needs to happen: the government abolishes marriage benefits entirely. All "Marriages" become "Civil Unions" or "Domestic Partnerships" or whatever they want to call them. They have the same taxable status as current marriages, all the medical decision powers, widow benefits, all that. Just... they aren't marriages. You want to get married, you take it to your respective church, and THEY tell you if you're married in the eyes of God.

But, also...

There's an intimacy beyond friendship that does not necessarily mean sex. It's staying up late at night and holding each other and not saying a word and not needing to. It's the way your heart flips when you open your eyes in the morning and you see them peacefully sleeping beside you. It's studying an absurd amount and glancing up from your notes to see them smiling at you from across the table and having them reach their hand across to hold yours. It's the knowledge that you can have just had the worst day and be so scared of the world and they will be there to hold you and kiss you, and you know you'd be there to hold them, and the world will just seem right again. While I don't believe I was ever in love with my ex (I try to stray away from the word love as it actually applies to my life because, to me, it's so important yet people so often mistake other feelings for it. I want to save the words "I love you" for when I actually really figure out what love is), our relationship was far, far more than sex-based.

ThisthisthisTHIS A thousand times THIS

Josiah, you just... don't get it. And you won't, until you've actually felt that way. I don't mean to be rude here, but you're wrong. It isn't a close friendship. It's totally different! You think I go around cuddling with my close friends? No way, man! That's nasty! It's someone special that you want to be with for the rest of your life! You can't control who you fall in love with; it just... happens. But falling in love is definitely different from being a close friend, no matter how you look at it!

And, well... I'm gonna go a bit out of character here, possibly push the forum rules as far as they'll go, but...

What's wrong with gay sex?!

It's isn't "unnatural"! In fact, it happens in nature all the time! Especially common in penguins, supposedly. Animals have gay sex! They form gay families and adopt babies, raising them as a mother and father even though they're the same sex! It's totally natural.

But even in humans, you can't deny that it's natural for people to want to have sex. As much as some people don't want to admit it, we're biologically programmed for it. It's no different for gays and lesbians - it's just that they're biologically programmed a little differently. This is another thing that people don't like to admit, but it's a scientifically proven fact (which was something I didn't know when I was twelve, not something they like to say in Christian schools) but being gay is built in. It isn't a choice. So why should people be denied a basic aspect of human life for reasons outside their control? It's not like people are going out and committing sodomy just for the hell of it; they legitimately are not attracted to people of the opposite sex for reasons they can't control. So why the hell shouldn't they be allowed to have sex? They are doing what God put them on the earth to do, exactly the way God made them to do it. And why shouldn't they be allowed to fall in love before doing so, same as anyone else? That just doesn't make any damn sense.

So you can say you're against gay marriage. You get married in a church, churches are entitled to their own definitions of what marriage should be.

But nobody has any right to be "against" gay relationships in general.

And I swear, if you ever come close to telling poor Saber here that she can't really fall in love with another girl ever again, I'll... well, give you a stern Internet talking to.

Because True Love! And all that stuff! It'll be four years for me and Colly in two days, guys! Four years!

[Josiah]

Hi!

All right, ok. I mostly agree with this. If you want my opinion, I don't think gay people should be able to get married. I also don't think atheists should be able to get married. "Marriage" is something you do in a church, with a priest, swearing oaths on Bibles and what not. It's a religious ceremony, and that's all. Or at least, that's what it should be... I really hate that it's completely a government thing now. If you ask me, the state shouldn't be able to tell you if you're married or not. Here's what needs to happen: the government abolishes marriage benefits entirely. All "Marriages" become "Civil Unions" or "Domestic Partnerships" or whatever they want to call them. They have the same taxable status as current marriages, all the medical decision powers, widow benefits, all that. Just... they aren't marriages. You want to get married, you take it to your respective church, and THEY tell you if you're married in the eyes of God.

I could support that.

Yeah, we're stretching the rating rules here but...

On the rest of your points... I'll admit that I've never been romantically in love with someone and I know it's different from even the closest friendship. The point I was trying to make was that you can still being extremely close to another person, even physically in some ways, without becoming romantically or sexually involved.

As for what's wrong with gay sex... I could argue that it doesn't allow for reproduction. But really, the main reason I'm not for it is because God said it's wrong. That's the same reason I don't eat pork or shrimp. I don't have some detailed explanation for that law either, but God said not to and I trust Him enough to figure that He has a good reason for it. And there are a lot of things people may want to do that aren't neccessarily good or right. That's why we have things like laws and self controll, so you can't building an argument on that alone.

On people and animals being being born gay. Yeah, that can happen. Though there are also cases where people choose to become that way because of life experiences (fear or dislike of the other sex, abuse, etc.). It's also been scientifically proven that early sexual encounters are often formative, as in, they can strongly effect what turns people on in the future, so that can be a possible cause as well. As for the people who are born that way, since sexual attraction (and quite a lot of other things to do with our bodies) are controlled by chemicals and the like, it would be rather interesting to find out if there is a certain gene or hormonal balance that leads to it. Though I doubt there will ever be any serious research into that, since it could lead to an argument on whether or not such a factor could be considered a defect (For the record, I'm not going to touch that issue, either way).

You may also be misreading my last post a bit. I did say that, while I personally think gay relationships are wrong, I don't attack or challenge people on it. I think eating pork is wrong too and you don't see me going around trying to get bacon banned or yelling at my friends when they eat a ham sandwhich. You can disagree with something without actually acting against it. I'm not for gay marriage but if homosexuals want to live together, get a civial union, or what not, fine. People can disagree on things. If both sides can stay peaceful about it and agree to disagree, there's nothing wrong with that. Keep in mind, most of the anti gay marriage groups in the US aren't trying to outlaw homosexual relationships or anything like that, they just don't want the definition of the word marriage itself to change.

I also never said Saber can't fall in love with another girl. I did say that there are ways to love someone and/or be really close to them without it getting to the point of sex and marriage, but I never said it wasn't possible to romantically love someone of the same gender. I also said that, while I don't consider lesbianism ideal, I'm not really against it either since it isn't mentioned in the Bible.

Finally, and on a less controversial topic, congrats to Silver and Colly!

[Saber Knight]

All right, ok. I mostly agree with this. If you want my opinion, I don't think gay people should be able to get married. I also don't think atheists should be able to get married. "Marriage" is something you do in a church, with a priest, swearing oaths on Bibles and what not.

I was under the impression that Christians did not have a monopoly on marriage? Fairly certain my Hindu friend's parents were married in a very much non-Christian ceremony. For some people, marriage is a ceremony and nothing more, but for some people it's just so much more meaningful--it just seems so wrong to me to deny them that right. Yeah, you shouldn't have to force a church to accept you or anything, but you don't have to get married in a church by a priest. If you can find someone willing to legally wed you, why should you be denied that right based on sex?

Josiah, you just... don't get it. And you won't, until you've actually felt that way. I don't mean to be rude here, but you're wrong. It isn't a close friendship. It's totally different! You think I go around cuddling with my close friends? No way, man! That's nasty! It's someone special that you want to be with for the rest of your life! You can't control who you fall in love with; it just... happens. But falling in love is definitely different from being a close friend, no matter how you look at it!

Before I was actually in a real relationship, I didn't get it, either. But when you're there and the world feels right again... it's just... it's really impossible to put into words. I have friends that I care about immensely and I would do anything in my power for. If they've had a bad day, I'll hug them and I even have friends I happily cuddle with, but it's so just not the same. Cuddling with friends is fun, sure, but cuddling with your someone... your heart just smiles and you feel warm throughout. It's just so, so different.

I'm a huge skeptic when it comes to a lot of things. Hell, I'm even a skeptic about love, despite the arguments I've made in it's favour. I don't know if I'll ever truly experience love. I certainly hope to, but I don't think falling in love is something that everyone is automatically capable of. I believe in loving and caring your friends and family, but being in love with someone... that's just something completely different.

MMMKAY back to studying 3 exams this week wheee

[Josiah]

Hi! I think Silver was just using the church and priest bit as an example. Every religion has their own marriage ceremony. Really though, there's no reason why homosexual people can't have a ceremony of some kind, change their names, or whatever. It's more that people want the word marriage itself to retain the traditional meaning of one man and one woman.

But anyway... Outside of my teaching right now I'm waiting for feedback on that story I wrote. Did I mention that it's a novella tie-in for a Sony Online Entertainment game? I was given permission to say that much, but not really anything else. Hopefully they'll like it an no major edits will be required. In the meantime, I'm working on Aurora's Nightmare again. I'm also planning to start looking into other possible jobs here and there since I don't know whether or not the game program here will continue and, even if it does, there are other areas I'd much rather live. Got a couple of other things I should probably put some time into as well...

[PoisonWing14]

Moi,

This is a bit strange for me, posting every day, but I suppose I'll have to up my game a bit for KotF. And, of course, it couldn't have come at a better time for me. I'll be working on my Junior Thesis for the next month or so, so not that much free time for me. The Junior Thesis is basically just a persuasive essay the you have to do quite a bit of research for. In English class, Sophomores and Juniors will research a controversial issue (finding both the pro side's and the con side's arguments), the Sophomores write up an outline and present a speech, while the Juniors write up a persuasive essay several pages long. So much fun, right?

Actually, with all of the talk here about same-sex marriage and such, I almost wish I could have done my essay on that issue, but I already did that topic last year. This year, I went with a bit of a different issue then some. My issue is regarding some people's opinion on stopping funding to NASA and space travel related organizations. I of course think that's preposterous. Space is the final frontier, and how else will we really find out where we came from, and where we're going? We can't stay glued to our home world forever. Humans, after all, are, and always have been, a constantly moving species. We have a need to travel to new places, explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations...to boldly go where no one has gone before. Some people argue that it's a giant waste of money, and sure, to some, it might seem that way, but what about all of the money going into the US's military? The money going into occupying and "protecting" other countries? Giving money to countries that don't even need it?
Ugh, I could go on, but I think I should save some of my arguments for my essay when I write it up.

So, yeah...I'll try to stick around here for KotF, but I'll be a bit busy with other stuff, so no promises.

Stay radical people, and "Dif-tor heh smusma" (Live long and prosper)!

[Josiah]

Hi! Actually Poison, if you're against the US spending money on other countries, it's foreign aid you should be looking at more than military spending. We give an enormous ammount of foreign aid money to other countries every year, some of which are very hostile to the US.