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[Metalheadz]

Ah, DBGT... How it ruined the name of Akira Toriyama's Dragonball franchise... Such a shame, non-canon fans. SSJ4-Gogeta= The most overrated non-canon character ever made.

I don't know much about Lelouch yet, though I know a little about Light. Goku is definitely the anime equivalent of Superman, and since Superman isn't necessarily the strongest character in DC (Marvel, too, if you include all comics) there's bound to also be characters stronger than Goku in anime.

[SuzuTitor]

Unfortunately, Goku's got his speed and power covered, outranking about every character there. The only flaw Goku has is his gullibility. Trick him really good trick (Light could ask him for his name easily), and one can beat him. However, if that trick fails, Goku won't let you live it down.

[Josiah]

Colly's right on all counts. Goku's only real weakness is that he's too much of a nice guy and isn't overly intelligent so he can be tricked. Actually though, Light might have trouble killing Goku even if Goku didn't realize he was a threat. See, Goku's real name is Kakarot so that's almost certainly the name the Death Note would require. But no one calls him that except Vegeta.

Tricks aside, we don't really know how Goku would fair against a powerful magic user (like Lina Inverse) since ridiculous physical strength and defense doesn't neccessarily mean he has good magical defense. That said, even the fastest spells take a second or two to cast so chances are Goku would never even get hit with one in the first place.

And while the Goku Superman comparison works...Goku is a lot stronger than Superman, even if he doesn't have all of Superman's powers. As much as I like Superman, Goku would destroy him in a fight. Even if it was the old invincible Superman, the best he could possible hope for would be a draw simple because he couldn't die.

[Metalheadz]

I personally think DBZ characters like Cell and Frieza would stand a better chance against most characters from anime. Goku is a saiyan, an alien with some human traits, too. Although Goku has no real weakness, Goku has the intelligence of a regular human, furthermore he can't breathe in space (not that it matters if he ever fought somebody who can bust a planet, since he has instantaneous transmission.) If I were to put any DBZ character up against another anime character, it'd be Frieza due to a couple more reasons. But yeah, I can't argue that Goku is one of the strongest protagonists in anime out there.

[Josiah]

Well, most of main heroes and villians from DBZ could take most characters from other anime. Goku may be the strongest, but I won't deny that Freiza and Cell have some special abilities that, in some ways, make them harder to kill. But you're completely forgetting about Kid Boo. After Goku, he definately the strongest character in DBZ. He can breath in space too. Plus he can regenerate from almost anything.

[Metalheadz]

I actually thought Gohan was the strongest character in DBZ (Vegito if you include fusions,) since he put up a better fight with Buu than Goku did. Mainly due to Gohan's abilities as Mystic form, in which he's already at full power without being Super Saiyan. Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, and Gohan easily beat Super Buu while Goku struggled with Kid Buu at Super Saiyan 3. Though, if you include the non-canon movies, Goku had beaten stronger people than Gohan did.

Also, keep in mind, between the three main DBZ villains, Buu might be the strongest, but has the mindset of a young child obsessed with candy. Frieza and Cell had similar durability, plus were more intelligent than Buu, so that's why I'd put one of those two against another anime character in place of Majin Buu. He's still the strongest villain in the series, no question there.

(On the side note... Now if only both DBZ fanboys and Narutards would stop arguing over which series is better/stronger... Though I do like Naruto more, DBZ characters are quite more superior all around in power.)

[Josiah]

Even if you discount the difference in power, Freiza and Cell aren't nearly as "durable". Freiza can't regenerate at all, as evidenced by the fact that he ended up half robot after getting sliced to pieces during his battle with Goku. Cell can fully regenerate, but only if a certain part of him isn't destroyed. Buu was able to regenerate after being blown up then having each piece destroyed (supposedly at the atomic level). As far as I can tell, the only reason Goku's super spirit bomb finished him off was that it did so much damage that he didn't have any energy left to regenerate. And while Majin Buu is an idiot, Super Boo and Kid Boo seemed fairly intelligent.

As far as power goes... Supposedly Gohan would be the strongest character in the series if he actually kept up with his training, but he didn't. "Mystic" Gohan is pretty powerful, bit Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo (though maybe not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks Super Boo) since Super Boo's power was still being reduced by the supreme kai that he absorbed long ago. Kid Boo is Boo's original form without the Kai's influence, and is therefor the most powerful.

[SuzuTitor]

I saw Josiah finished Madoka, so you know where I'm hijacking this thread (unless it's more important to start a new thread for it).
Madoka discussion time.

SPOILER WARNING

What do you think of the new universe? Speculations on what the majuu (gg translated as "demons") are? Do you think the universe Homura was once in even existed? Just what was that in the post-credit animation.

Feel free to answer and bring up more questions.

[Josiah]

That was one interesting series and a pretty crazy (though good) ending. Well, let's get the discussion going!

SPOILER WARNING

What do you think of the new universe?

I'm kinda upset that, despite completely rewriting history, Sayaka still died (apparently by overdoing it (purposely?) and killing herself). I kinda figured that, seeing as she probably never found out that she's not exactly alive in that universe, she'd have no reason to withdraw like she did before. Though it's nice that Mami and Kyoko are alive.

But there's no good explanation for why the new universe doesn't have a Madoka. I know she bascially created a paradox and erased her existence, but that doesn't really explain why her parents didn't have any kids until her little brother. If not a clueless Madoka, shouldn't there have still been an older sibling? Overall though, the universe seems like it's probably better than the old one, though it's hard to be sure from such a brief glimpse.

Do you think the universe Homura was once in even existed?

Going by Homura's backstory episode, she wasn't traveling through time or jumping between parrallel universes but completely rewinding time while retaining her skills and memories (if she was time hopping, there should have been two Homura's in all but the original time line). So each previous timeline was undone every time she started over. Or are you talking about Homura's conversation with Kyube at the end and whether or not she was just imagining everything that happened? If so, I'd say that the original universe did exist. That's evidenced by the actions of Madoka's mother and little brother and those weird wings Homura gets.

Speculations on what the majuu (gg translated as "demons") are?

I've got two theories on thise.
1. Since there are no longer witches to absorb all the world's darkness and negativity, it eventually gathers together on its own and forms demons.
2. The incubators create the demons (possibly by helping along the process from theory 1) so they can collect the energy when the demons are defeated.

Just what was that in the post-credit animation.

Homura with the crazy wings attacking that bunch of demons? The wings almost seem to be some sorta trans-dimensional power. I assumed that they were a "gift" of sorts from Madoka since Homura heared her voice when using them. Other than that, I didn't attach any particular significance to that scene. Just a kinda, "yeah, Homura is being awesome and protecting the world" type of scene. Though I suppose it's a bit odd that she was off fighting demons in a desert seeing as she lives in Japan...

Here's a question for you. What do you think of Madoka's wish? It worked pretty well, but would it have been better for her to wish for something else (like the incubators never having come to Earth)? On that note, here's an interesting question. If a girl agrees to the contract and makes a wish, is Kyube required to fulfill it no matter what? I'm leaning towards yes since it seems like, if he could refuse, he would have turned down both Homura and Madoka's wishes since they were kinda guarenteed to mess up his plans.

[SuzuTitor]

SPOILER WARNING

You see, I've considered the wish of erasing Incubators, but do you remember what Kyubey said? There might be the possibility that all advances in civilization was thanks to them. Making such a wish would be a bit of a gamble, since we don't know 100% if that's true or not.
What made Madoka's wish so perfect, IMO, was that she added "with my own hands" to her wish. She was in total control of her wish because of that. If she didn't add that, could you imagine what kind of universe would be made?

Also, Kyuubey is definitely required to make the wish come true. Pretty much like a genie. I bet you he can grant completely illogical wishes too, based on Madoka's wish that had to create new rules to the universe.

[Josiah]

SPOILER WARNING

You've got a point there. Though if all the incubators did was create witches and magical girls, I can't imagine that they had as much of an influence on humanity's development as Kyubey claimed. And I won't argue that Madoka's wish was brilliantly done... But I kinda wish she'd gotta some revenge on the incubators...

As far as Kyubey and wishes go, it does seem like he has to grant whatever the girl wants, but he also said that some things were beyond his power (such as returning Sayaka to normal). Though it also seems to be somewhat dependant on the potential of the girl herself. Madoka's wish only worked because she had so much power. Another girl couldn't have done it.

[Silver]

EVERYONE ELSE MADE A SPOILER WARNING SO I WILL TOO!


I definitely got the impression that his wish granting capability was based on the power of the Magical Girl in question, just based on certain lines... like the whole, "I could make you a God" thing. In theory, if he could grant anything, wouldn't he be able to do that for anyone that wished to be a God? So two possibilities:
1) Kyuubey has no power. When extracting a soul to form a Soul Gem, the magical girl's own energy is released, and he simply converts this into a wish.
2) He is only willing to expend energy less than what he expects to receive from the witch a magical girl creates. Sayaka wouldn't make a very powerful witch, so why should he waste precious energy on her? Something like that.


As for Madoka getting revenge... aside from that chance it would have screwed them over, they weren't... really... "evil". What they did was cruel, but they didn't see it that way. They aren't human, so they can't understand. I think she realized that. They spent enough time discussing it... It would be like if all the cows revolted. What would we do? Stop eating beef, that's all. She was also still at least mostly innocent by then end, and, as seen by her wish, much too optimistic for her own good. It wouldn't have been in character to take revenge.

[Josiah]

SPOILER WARNING
True, it wouldn't have been in character for Madoka (though just wishing that they never found Earth wouldn't have really hurt them much). And I realize that the incubators are a special case. Since they have no understanding of emotions or feelings you can make a case that they aren't really evil. But then what about Organization XIII? Like the incubators, they don't have feelings (though I think Xenmas was the only one who convincingly pulled that off, but anyway...) so can you blame them for all the bad things they did? It's an interesting question. I think Organization XIII was, for the most part, evil. Even though they didn't have emotions, they had memories of their time as humans and knew what they were doing was wrong. The incubaters, however, don't have that knowledge to fall back on so you could cut them some slack for their actions...almost. Thing is, even though Kyubey didn't understand human emotions, he'd spent enough time on Earth that he had knowledge of them. He knew people didn't like having their souls removed from their bodies (he said as much when Sayaka's soul gem got thrown off the bridge), he knew they cared deeply for each other (even though he didn't see the logic in it), and he knew that most would likely refuse the contract if they knew that they'd eventually turn into a witch as a result. Knowing all that, he was deliberately misleading the girls. He says they treated humans with respect as an intelligent species and it was fine because he gave each girl a choice...but by leaving out so many critical details, it wasn't really a fair offer. The incubators didn't try to understand human emotions, they just twisted things to their advantage. So while they aren't pure evil, I can't really even call them neutral.

On a side note, considering Madoka's personality, I'm a little surprised that she didn't try and wish Mami back to life early in the series.

I'll go with Kyubey using the energy from the magical girls themselves to grant wishes.

[Silver]

She probably tried to wish Mami back to life... several times... but you know that Homerun-chan. If Madoka even thought about making a contract, she'd barge in there and make Swiss cheese out of a certain Incubator.

[Josiah]

Except it didn't show that and Madoka seemed pretty freaked out about the whole magical girl thing after seeing what happened to Mami... Actually, now that I think about it, in most of the other timelines, Mami survived a lot longer (usually until Walparugis Night) and we never did find out what Madoka's wish was in those timelines. Maybe she did bring Mami before...