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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:18 pm 
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(sorry for the double post but I really wanted to start this new topic.)

2. Goku is at least the anime counterpart for Superman.

Lots of DBZ fans compare Goku to Superman, and often pit them against each other. Although I'm not really a fan of American comics, I know that Superman isn't the strongest comic book character out there. Galactus, Darkseid, Silver Surfer, and lots of other characters I can name are above Superman. There should be plenty anime characters out there stronger than Goku, as well.

As for a fight between Goku and Superman...

If you put the best version of Goku (Super Saiyan 3) from DBZ against the greatest Superman, Superman will win. True, Goku has the ability to destroy planets with ease, but most of Goku's planet-busting attacks take a long time to charge, allowing Superman to attack him while he's about to fire a kamehameha (the strongest kamehameha takes about 30 seconds to charge up, and that's more than enough time for Superman to hit him.)

Goku is also outclassed in speed. Although very fast, I can't argue, he's never actually reached the point of the speed of light in either the manga or anime. Goku travels at speeds of Mach 1000+, while Superman, from the comics, had traveled at least 5x faster than the speed of light (can travel across the solar system.) Furthermore, Goku cannot breathe in space, Superman can.

Superman is physically stronger than Goku, too. The strongest incarnation of Superman had the strength to move planets and block asteroids with his bare hands. Goku's best feat in strength, really, is only moving two mountains away while fighting Kid Buu. Impressive, yes. Superman-level feat, below it.

The Superman I've been referring to is Pre-Crisis Superman, probably one of his strongest incarnations. The version of Superman Goku could best defeat is the DC Animated Universe Superman, in which I think is what everybody compares Goku to. And yes, while I can't deny that Goku is one of the strongest anime protagonists, Superman would defeat Goku.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:59 am 
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It does depend a lot on which version of Superman you're talking about.

1. Strength
In general, Goku seems to be stronger. When was the last time you saw Superman punch a guy through a mountain (or several mountains for that matter)? Goku would have no trouble moving a planet or blocking an asteroid if he wanted to. Superman is completely outclassed here.

2. Speed
If you're using a version of Superman that can travel at light speed, he is faster than Goku though I'll note that it takes time for Superman to build up that kind of speed and Goku can teleport.

3. Endurance
Going off of my strength reasoning, most of Superman's attacks really wouldn't do too much damage to Goku. If you're going with classic "invulnerable to everything but kryptonite" Superman, he would eventually win in a war of attrition. Any other Superman would get beaten up long before Goku runs out of energy.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:50 am 
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Pre-Crisis Superman is the original Superman. Post-Crisis Superman is the most common Superman, just a tad weaker than Pre-Crisis. The DC Animated Universe Superman is his weakest incarnation and is the most commonly pitted against Goku.

Josiah wrote:
1. Strength
In general, Goku seems to be stronger. When was the last time you saw Superman punch a guy through a mountain (or several mountains for that matter)? Goku would have no trouble moving a planet or blocking an asteroid if he wanted to. Superman is completely outclassed here.


Kidding me? Comparing moving a mountain like what he did against Kid Buu compared to anything Superman did is child's play. Observe how Superman pushes an entire planet into orbit. Here, too. (The planets appear smaller than they really are.) Besides, Superman could probably level a whole continent by punching somebody if he wanted to, just based on his actual feats. He just either has never needed that kind of strength in combat or never fought a foe where he needed to throw a punch like that. Also, you're assuming Goku can move a planet when he has never displayed that feat.

Josiah wrote:
2. Speed
If you're using a version of Superman that can travel at light speed, he is faster than Goku though I'll note that it takes time for Superman to build up that kind of speed and Goku can teleport.


Most of Superman's versions are faster than others. Goku's teleporting may be useless in combat if Superman could speedblitz him before he even places his finger on his forehead for instant transmission. He doesn't exactly need to time to build up to massively faster than light speed, only when he's traveling in space. The following picture shows he can move at high speeds without charging up time. Superman moves so fast he can even become invisible. Goku can, too, but again he's not faster than light.

Finally, endurance, here's an impressive feat in that category. Durability and endurance like that is displayed in every Superman version except DCAU. Most of Goku's punches would bounce off him, I believe. Unless you show me a more impressive strength feat by Goku, he won't really be able to hurt him (or touch him judging by speed.)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:25 am 
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I'll note that while I am somewhat of a Superman fan, I don't avidly follow comics. Anyway...

If Goku can destroy a planet with a fraction of his power, there's no reason to think that he couldn't move one if he tried. He just never had the need to do so.

Also, I'll point out that Superman generally doesn't do very well against magic. Goku can't use magic, but he has his chi blasts and we have no idea of how Superman would do against them.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Chi is more of a martial arts thing rather than magic. While Superman isn't good against magic, it's not like a super weakness of him like kryptonite, and even if chi counts as magic, he could probably take a couple hits. Again, Superman outclasses Goku in speed, so a ki blast wouldn't be able to touch him.

We can all agree that Goku can destroy a planet, yes, but that's only with a ki blast rather than his fists. Sure, Goku could probably drill himself into the center of the Earth and break the core with his fists, but that's probably the only possible way he can use his strength to destroy a planet. It would probably be easier to destroy planets than move them, since more characters in fiction have displayed that feat. Superman is one of the few who've actually succeeded in moving a planet, so that proves he's stronger than Goku there.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:54 am 
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Honestly, do you know why these powerlevel-type fights never work? Because most of the time, the character is always placed as the weaker one at one moment to make a situation, and stronger the next to solve it. This applies to both Superman and almost always to Goku. Also, different works of fiction have different sets of rules and powerlevels. This is why it's annoying to even think of the outcome of crossover fights.

I've never seen a good debate over Superman vs. Goku. Please stop, as these tend to get really bad really quick.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:53 am 
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Josiah and I argued practically the same thing when we were debating Gohan vs Goku. I've seen many worst Goku vs Superman fights, Colly, but luckily Josiah and I are mature enough and know a lot about both characters to actually debate fairly. Besides, this thread is really what its all about, debating against Goku.

I'm not arguing over pure power levels, either. I'm only comparing Goku at SSJ3 to the original Superman. Instead, I'm arguing feats, which is present in every form of fiction.

I believe we can stop if it goes out of hand, but that's Josiah's decision, not yours or mine.

On that record, I didn't necessarily even start this debate...

Josiah wrote:
And while the Goku Superman comparison works...Goku is a lot stronger than Superman, even if he doesn't have all of Superman's powers. As much as I like Superman, Goku would destroy him in a fight. Even if it was the old invincible Superman, the best he could possible hope for would be a draw simple because he couldn't die.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:14 pm 
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While we could go back and forth on this for a while, Colly is right about why matchups of these types never really work. Different worlds, different rules, dramatic tension, and limited source material make it impossible to form a definitive conclusion in most cases.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:43 am 
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While I do somewhat agree with Colly, too... Once again, rules and power levels aren't everything. All I'm trying to tell you both is that both Goku and Superman showed feats throughout the course of the manga and the comics. The examples I give aren't trying to claim Superman is stronger than Goku and would beat him in a fight, but Superman has displayed far better feats than Goku did in their proper universes. Colly is only telling us about the Goku vs Superman fights which involve all the whiny fanboys, which can't come up with a conclusion due to all the lack of good debating.

I'd also like to point out Colly did make a sudden conclusion over crossover matchups with Goku in the other thread, without any debating except by your approval.

CollyChan wrote:
Unfortunately, Goku's got his speed and power covered, outranking about every character there. The only flaw Goku has is his gullibility. Trick him really good trick (Light could ask him for his name easily), and one can beat him. However, if that trick fails, Goku won't let you live it down.

Josiah wrote:
Colly's right on all counts. Goku's only real weakness is that he's too much of a nice guy and isn't overly intelligent so he can be tricked. Actually though, Light might have trouble killing Goku even if Goku didn't realize he was a threat. See, Goku's real name is Kakarot so that's almost certainly the name the Death Note would require. But no one calls him that except Vegeta.


However, Josiah, by the way you and I are arguing (like we did with Gohan and Goku) it'd seem easier to come up with somewhat of a conclusion. Perhaps not a one we can both totally agree on, but perhaps a somewhat definite conclusion. Unlike the whiny debaters, but judging by our pace, we won't end up like they did.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:26 am 
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True, I don't think this is going to devolve into a flame war or anything. Though I'm not too sure we'll ever reach an agreement either.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Lets do the best we can, I guess. Before Colly posted her complaint, anything else you'd like to say backing up Goku?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:50 pm 
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I'll give Superman this. He's at his fullest potential immediately. Goku needs time to get to his.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:58 am 
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Seems like we have a winner, then.

As for Colly's comment on crossover matchups, I agree with her that 99% of these battles will never reach an conclusion. Comparing Goku and Superman, though, is probably the most reasonable since both have very similar powers and displayed similar feats. I've seen matchups before such as Sailor Moon vs Goku. While I do think Sailor Moon (her manga incarnation) would win, it'd be even harder to argue that because Sailor Moon is a totally different universe from DBZ.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:34 am 
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I don't really want to start another debate but I have to say, Sailor Moon? Really? She could probably beat Master Roshi, but Goku doesn't have any problems fighting girls and she ranks way, way, way, way below Goku in terms of speed, strength, and endurance. I suppose you could say that magic isn't physcially based so she could potentially hurt Goku with some of her attacks, but they all require around 30 seconds of spinning and fancy posing to activate so she'd never get one off. But anyway, I don't have time for another long debate right now so I'll drop it there.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:02 am 
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Yeah, I won't start another debate right now. But I do want to point out that manga Sailor Moon is much, much stronger and faster than anime Sailor Moon.

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