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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Continued from a mini-debate on the Anime Help Center thread. He's often highly praised by the fans to be, but clearly isn't. I'll start off with one topic.

1. Why is Goku not the strongest character in DBZ, let alone?

If you don't include Vegito or Gotenks, the broken fusion characters, Gohan in his Mystic stage is the strongest raw character in DBZ. Mystic Gohan showed more impressive feats than Goku at Super Saiyan 3 did, one of the most important being nearly defeating Super Buu (who IS stronger than Kid Buu) and was on par with Gotenks-absorbed Buu. As you all know, too, Goku can only remain in Super Saiyan 3 for so long, while Gohan is in his Mystic form 24/7.

The way I see it (canon only), feel free to argue:

Vegito > Super Buu (w/ Gohan and Gotenks) > Gohan (Mystic) > Gotenks (SSJ3) > Kid Buu > Goku (SSJ3) > Vegeta and every other character below him

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:55 pm 
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I'd say your power order list has some problems. It should be more like this.

Vegito > Kid Buu > Super Buu (w/ Gohan) > Goku (SSJ3) > Gohan (Mystic) > Gotenks (SSJ3) > Super Boo (regular) > Vegeta (SSJ2) > other characters

First off, Kid Buu. The anime and manga are both fairly clear on the fact that it is Boo's original and strongest form. It's the only form (other than pure evil Boo) that didn't incorperate fat (good) Boo, who, according to the Supreme Kai, was affect Boo's power and personality. Note how much the Supreme Kai freaked out when he saw Kid Boo and how much Goku and Vegeta freaked out once they sensed his power level. Also, note that Super Book NEVER had Gohan and Gotenks absorbed at the same time. The Gotenks fusion wore off before he absorbed Gohan, which significantly lowered his power.

You'll note that I put both of those two Boos above Goku. The reason being that Goku probably couldn't defeat either one in a straight up fight. However, Goku isn't the strongest character simply because of his raw power (though that's certainly a big part of it). He's also smart (at least when it comes to battles), has some special techniques that give him a big advantage (teleportation and the spirit bomb), and doesn't give up no matter what. So while some others may be a bit stronger, Goku always wins out in the end. Boo is also a rather weird character to rank against due to his ability to regenerate from nearly anything. It really doesn't take much to kill Boo (heck, Krillian cut Kid Boo in half with a Destructo Disk), the trick is killing him permanently.

As for Gohan... The power of his "mystic" form is never clearly defined other than that he's stronger than Gotenks and probably could have killed regular Super Boo. And it's hard to say how he ranks in terms of straight up power compared to Goku at SSJ3. Gohan has the potential to be stronger than Goku, the series is always clear on that, but he doesn't have Goku's love for fighting so he never stays stronger than his dad for very long. If he seriously applied himself he could eventually surpass Goku but even in "mystic" form he just doesn't have the skills he'd need to win (look how easily Super Boo caught him off guard).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Just because Gohan has mentioned to hate fighting and lacks the experience doesn't make him a weaker fighter than his father. That hidden potential Gohan had since he was a boy, whenever it was realized, always surpassed his father, such as the fight with Raditz, and most importantly, the fight with Cell. However, the problem with the fight with Cell is that it wasn't completely released, only making him strong enough to go Super Saiyan 2. Mystic Gohan, however, Elder Kai helped him release that hidden potential to his fullest, and explains why he didn't need to go Super Saiyan to become stronger than Goku at his strongest, so he could probably remain Mystic for an infinite amount of time. Also, if you've noticed, Goku is more of the merciful type of fighter, especially displayed when he let Frieza live twice and gave Cell a senzu bean. Gohan, on the other hand, whenever he got angry and released his potential, he would often go into a rage that would even kill his opponent. The perfect example of this being when he killed Cell and Bojack from the DBZ movies. Goku had only really killed in his own defense rather than pure wrath, such as Frieza, Cooler, and Kid Buu.

Obviously, Goku must win all of his fights. It's not because he's stronger than the villain, it's only because of the simple logic that in every story, the good guy must win, no matter how lame the win is. From a rumor I've heard, Gohan was supposed to kill Super Buu in that showdown before he could get Gotenks for himself. Akira Toriyama received lots of complaints from fans demanding Goku to be the one to kill Buu, instead, and so Buu died by being hit by a Spirit Bomb. Epic, yes, but could've been better according to a handful of other fans.

Kid Buu is only on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku at his best. If Vegeta and Goku got their butts handed easily by a Super Buu with Gohan and they both fought even with Kid Buu on Kai's Planet, that obviously shows something. Kid Buu is the most dangerous, but not the strongest of the 3 Buus. Supreme Kai was right on saying his power and personality was unimaginable as Kid Buu, only because his original form was the most reckless and stopped at nothing to kill and destroy, unlike Super Buu which wanted a fair fight and was calm most of the time. Kid Buu IS stronger than Super Buu, when he hasn't absorbed anybody. Combine Super Buu's power with SSJ3 Gotenks, a hero just below Gohan and SSJ3 Goku, and Kid Buu is toast. Could Kid Buu absorb, too? Possibly, but according to what canon has showed, Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed is enough to destroy Kid Buu, Gohan, and Goku.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:46 am 
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I'd like to point out that the movies aren't cannon so examples from them don't count for much. If you add them in, you might as well add in GT and if we're doing that you can make a very good case for old Krillian being the strongest character in the series. :eyeroll:

Yes Gohan has a lot of power but, as I said before, power isn't everything. Goku is the more skilled fighter and he has instant transmission, which is extremely useful. Mystic Gohan might surpass SSJ3 Goku in strength and brutality, but if they actually fought, he'd lose. As for whether or not Toriyama was intending for Gohan to kill Boo...it's an interesting thought but unless you have some proof to back to it up, that's all it is.

Goku never fought Super Boo at SSJ3, though he did say that he could have destroyed regular Boo that way, so you can't say that Super Boo would have won that one. As for the battle with Kid Boo on the Supreme Kai's planet... SSJ3 Goku fought pretty evently with Kid Boo (the only problem being Kid Boo's regeneration). Vegeta, however, did not. The most that can be said for Vegeta (at SSJ2) is that he managed to survive for a couple of minutes and he took a pretty serious beating in the process.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:37 am 
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You are aware I gave a non-canon example for Goku's side too. Canon or not, and Gohan not killing Buu, it's been shown numerous times that Gohan will kill his opponent whenever his potential is released.

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Goku never fought Super Boo at SSJ3


Wrong. This video is totally legit. Super Buu with Gotenks nearly defeated Goku if only he hadn't reverted back to Piccolo's power. Just imagine now that Buu will have the power of Gohan, too, who's stronger than Gotenks, and fought with Goku then? He would be annihilated, as well as Kid Buu who you already said is even with SSJ3 Goku. You're also forgetting that Super Buu has regeneration, too, not to mention he even survived attacks from Vegito, who's so much more powerful than Goku.

As for Gohan again... Goku barely ever uses his instant transmission in combat, more for traveling purposes. If Goku ever tried to destroy the planet to kill Gohan in the process then teleporting, Gohan could simply fire back a stronger Kamehameha wave back at Goku's Kamehameha, and Goku would lose. Neither of them can breathe in space, so he has to destroy the planet on the planet. The fight can go with Goku teleporting to the other side of the hemisphere and charging a Kamehameha wave. It will take about a minute to charge, but Gohan's fast enough to fly halfway across the planet and hit Goku before he finally fires it. But still, planet destruction is out of the question since neither Gohan nor Goku would want to do that.

Not to mention, Goku is more of a fair fighter rather than a reckless one like Vegeta, which has been proven a disadvantage when he fought against Fat Buu and Cell. He may outclass Gohan in martial arts skills and battle experience, but Gohan outclasses his father in speed, strength, stamina, you name it. Sure, Goku has the Spirit Bomb which would kill Gohan in an instant, but the Spirit Bomb takes a long time to charge, allowing Gohan to step in and beat up his father. Keep in mind, too, SSJ3 Goku is only SSJ3 for a couple minutes, probably at the most half an hour according to feats. Gohan could aways just stall time and stay away from his father before his energy runs out, then defeat him.

Now comparing Gohan to Vegeta... Keep in mind Goku had always defeated Vegeta because he was so cocky during his fights and was more skilled. Gohan practically falls in between Goku's and Vegeta's style of fighting, he plays rather fair at first but then goes all out and destroys his opponent. The perfect example being fighting Frieza in his 2nd form and Cell.

P.S. This is an interesting debate so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:29 pm 
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For the record, the only one Gohan ever killed (outside of the moves) was Cell. He got some good hits in on Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza, but that was all.

Forgot about that scene... It's not in the manga, so you can still debate how seriously it should be taken but anyway, how do you get that Goku was nearly defeated? Super Boo got a couple of good hits in but Goku was still in pretty good shape and didn't look hurt or tired. He got beaten up much more by Vegeta, Cell, and others and was still able to fight and win. Looking at it objectively, they seem almost even in that scene. Super Boo does seem a bit stronger, but not a ton. I wouldn't say that SSJ3 Goku faired any worse in that fight than Gohan did.

As for Goku vs. Gohan... Goku does use instant transmission in battle at times. Not a lot, but he makes good use of it when he does. Goku also has more training and more determination than Gohan. Early on in the Boo saga, Gohan was losing to Deborah (not but a lot, but he was). Yes he got a big power boost later on but, as I said before, power isn't everything. As far as planet desctruction goes, yeah they wouldn't do that. But at SSJ3 Goku wouldn't need to charge up to destroy a planet the size of Earth. If Vegeta could create a blast strong enough to destroy Earth back during the Saiyan Saga, by the time you get to Boo, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan probably could have destroyed the Earth without any real effort.

Goku does like to fight fair, which can be a disadvantage against villians. Against Gohan, not so much since Gohan isn't a dirty fighter. Fighting fair wasn't the issue with Fat Boo though, Goku just wanted to let the kids handle things since he didn't expect to be returning to life so he wanted them to learn how to handle thing. At his best, Gohan probably does beat Goku in raw power. Not so sure about speed or stamina though. Goku does have trouble maintaining SSJ3 for a long period of time after coming back to life, that's true. Though you'd assume that, with practice, that wouldn't be an issue seeing as SSJ and SSJ2 can be maintained for a a pretty long time.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:26 pm 
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The fight against Raditz? Goku didn't land a single hit on him, and he was far stronger than Gohan at that time. Gohan's potential, in fact, got released at that time which was even strong enough to destroy Raditz. As for Frieza, Goku wasn't even a match for him before he became Super Saiyan, and in fact he barely lay a hit on him. When Gohan fought Frieza in his final form (not 100%), his potential was seen again and he gave him a pretty good beating before SSJ Goku appeared again.

Even if that fight weren't completed, just imagine, still, if Goku continued to fight Super Buu Gotenks at that time, would he have won? No. If you saw the fight between Gohan and Super Buu Gotenks before fighting Goku, he actually landed a few good hits on Buu before weakening, which is already a decent feat and was much better than when SSJ3 Goku fought him. It's because the fight against Buu Gotenks and Gohan was LONGER and Gohan weakened gradually over the course of the episode. I don't see Goku lasting in that fight as long as Gohan, because his durability and stamina is on par or lower than Gohan's.

Gohan's fight with Dabura is out of the question. You can't really blame him for losing because he hasn't trained like he used to for almost 7 years, until Elder Kai whipped him back into shape. Goku is a more trained fighter, of course, but sometimes his training didn't even pay off so much. Think of a fight of SSJ3 Goku vs Mystic Gohan like the Goku (before SSJ) and Frieza fight. Goku admitted he couldn't win in his normal form, despite all that training and determination to defeat Frieza. In this situation, I'm comparing Gohan to Frieza because both were more of a superpower rather than a trained fighter like Goku. Frieza outclassed Goku in every way except training before he became a Super Saiyan, and this scenario is a good example of how a Gohan vs Goku fight would go.

Obviously, SSJ3 Goku is his only chance of being equal to his son. SSJ and SSJ2 would lose to Mystic Gohan, as in massive OVERKILL. Give both Goku and Gohan some prep time, perhaps Goku could train in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for a couple years to defeat Gohan. But for trying to get a SSJ or SSJ2 to match Mystic Gohan, that would take several years. Just imagine how much stronger Gohan would become if he trained just as hard as his father for that long.

You can claim that Gohan is too much of a school nerd and never trained like Goku did, but the thing with Gohan is that over the course of his training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he becomes stronger than Goku. A great example being just right before the Cell games, Gohan was actually stronger than Goku at full power SSJ (not SSJ2). The only reason Gohan took a bigger beating than Goku did was Cell received a Senzu Bean. It makes so much more difference than you think. Since Cell has Saiyan DNA within him, the Saiyan potential kicks in where he becomes stronger after coming from the brink of death, in which he was exhausted enough to be considered that, therefore his power was boosted a lot beyond full power after taking the senzu bean. Don't know about the Saiyan potential? Listen to a couple lines from Vegeta during the Frieza saga.

All that being said... It doesn't matter how much skill you have if your opponent is that much stronger or faster than you. It's like if you're fighting a guy who was in the army and he has a gun, but you have a blackbelt in every form of martial arts. You might have more skill, but he'll still kill you with one pull of a trigger. Goku can't touch or even hurt Gohan unless he has prep time, as in years and years of that kind of time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:57 pm 
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I know all about how Saiyans gets stronger after surviving a near death experience. The thing with the SSJ3 Goku vs. Super Boo fight is that it's just too short to judge by. Super Boo got in a couple of good hits that didn't seem to do any serious damage. Look at any DBZ fight and you'll see points where one character takes a beating for a little while then comes back and reverses things (or at least evens them out). That fight just isn't long enough to form a definite opinion about Goku's strength as opposed to Gohan's. And, as I said before, it isn't even in the manga.

As for Goku needing to be SSJ3 to compete against mystic Gohan, I never said that Goku was stronger at a lower form. He probably would need to be at SSJ3 (assuming Gohan's power boost didn't wear off over time). But what's wrong with that? The transformations are part of what makes Saiyans special. You don't judge Freiza or Cell's overall strength based on one of their weaker forms so why should you do that with Goku's. As an interesting side, it seems like, after his power was unlocked, Gohan was unnable to transform for some reason. Thing is, he was losing to Gotenks Super Boo, that's why Goku got revived and headed to Earth with the Protera earrings. If Gohan could have gone SSJ or SSJ2, you'd think that he would have. Yeah mystic Gohan is stronger than old SSJ2 Gohan, but the things with SSJ transformations is that they basically just greatly increase your current power (and give you a new hairdo an eye color) so there would have been no reason for Gohan not to go SSJ2 if he could have.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Who cares if it's not in the manga? Super Buu Gotenks and Goku SSJ3 are all canon characters, and even a non-canon fight will give slight hints on how a battle will go. Besides, Goku knew he couldn't defeat Buu all by himself at SSJ3, so it's obvious that he couldn't win if the fight continued. That's why he brought the potara earings to fuse with Gohan, later Vegeta, and eventually beat Super Buu.

All I was saying when comparing Goku's normal form to Frieza's final form is that's all I see the fight between Gohan and Goku would go. I would say in this scenario, his SSJ would be equal to the non-canon SSJ4. So really, unless SSJ4 was canon, Goku couldn't defeat Gohan. Even though DBGT isn't canon, either, I have to admit Goku may be equal to or a tad bit stronger than Mystic Gohan. But still, between the DBGT and DBZ timelines, Goku had more than 10 years to train, allowing him to achieve SSJ4 and surpass his son. But enough about that, I get upset just thinking about how GT ruined Toriyama's work... :drop2:

You're quite right, actually. Why didn't Gohan go a SSJ or 2 when he fought Buu? It was never clearly stated Gohan couldn't transform if he were Mystic. For all we know, it wouldn't make him any stronger, or he might swallow the whole galaxy while entering SSJ. If Goku rumbled the whole planet by just going SSJ3, how much damage to the Earth would a more powerful Mystic Gohan do while transforming SSJ or SSJ2? Let alone, Mystic Gohan would then severely outclass SSJ3 Goku at just SSJ, possibly even with base Vegito at SSJ2.

This debate topic only really focuses on why Mystic Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Before we go into more discussion about the Buus, I will assume Gohan the winner unless you have further proof Goku has a slight chance of beating his son.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Um... not being in the manga is a pretty big deal actually, since if I'm not mistaken the end of the manga was where Toriyama wanted it to end. He did not plan anything after that, he made it up because his producers more or less forced him to. The end of the manga is the true end, or at least, according to the original creator it should be. With that, anything that only appears in the anime is not canon. At all.

Haven't actually watched any of that (lol GT), so I can't really argue about it. Just throwing that out there.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:30 am 
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I'm aware DBGT is not canon, I already mentioned it several times. The anime not be canon but at least it's faithful enough to the manga to keep them in-character.

As for DBGT, on a side note. I strongly recommend not watching it, Silver, unless you were a die-hard Dragonball fan, regardless of canon or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Actually, I think the less you know about Dragon Ball, the higher your chances of enjoying GT since you won't realize how much it screws everything up. Once again, let's leave GT out of this discussion. Because, as I previously mentioned, if you add it in I can make a decent case for old Krillian being the strongest character in the series...

I never said that SSJ3 Goku could beat Gotenks Super Boo. He didn't think he could, which is why he tried to fuse with Gohan. What I said was that, from that short little fight scene, you really can't say that Goku faired significantly better or worse than Gohan did. It was a quick exchange and did nothing other than show that neither SSJ3 Goku or Gotenks Super Boo significantly outclassed the other. If the fight had dragged on long enough, Goku probably would have lost eventually (unless he managed to charge long enough to get a Spirit Bomb off) but he would have put up a pretty good fight. Once again, the thing that makes Boo so difficult to defeat isn't his power (though that's part of it) but his regeneration.

There are a few things in the final battles that are never explained, the two main things being why mystic Gohan didn't go SSJ and how exactly Boo's regeneration works (and, in turn, what exactly needed to be done to cancel it out). As I said before about Gohan, seeing as he was losing to Gotenks Super Boo in a big battle for the fate of the universe, we can only assume that he would have transformed if he could have, so the only logical explanation is that something with the only power unlock process prevented it. As for damaging the Earth...Vegito (who we can all agree was stronger than Mystic Gohan) went SSJ2 without damaging it. Besides, while Earth getting destroyed is problematic, everyone knew that they could always use the Namekian dragon balls to wish it back. So if destroying the Earth would stop Boo, they'd be willing to do it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:10 pm 
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SSJ2? No, Vegito only went SSJ. That's why he called himself Super Vegito and not Super Vegito 2. The Dragonballs also shouldn't be a factor in any fight, even just powering up. Goku or any DBZ character for that matter could just wish to become stronger, then they would be able to surpass somebody like Vegito. But even if they busted the planet, regardless of how they do it, the only one who would be able to survive it is Goku, because of his instant transmission. Again, though, Gohan, Super, and Kid Buu are all much faster than Goku, so I doubt they would let him blow up the planet so easily.

I guess we can all agree to my list, now? (Edited a little to move Kid Buu and Goku up)

Vegito > Super Buu (w/ Gohan) > Gohan (Mystic) > Kid Buu > Goku (SSJ3) > Gotenks (SSJ3) > Vegeta and every other character below him

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Was Vegito just SSJ? Well, it's been a while since I've watched or read that arc. Anyway, as far as your list goes, it's better though I'd move Kid Boo up and put Goku at least on even footing with Gohan. But I don't think we're ever going to reach an agreement on that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Yeah. SSJ2 Vegito would probably be overkill for Super Buu. As for the debate for Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku, we could always take a vote, but who knows seeing how much Gohan bias or Goku bias will exist in the forums.

I'll start a new debate topic sometime later.

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