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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Shiny Pidgeot King
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The only thing I have to say is... how would Kanon being the "real" person make George a gay pedophile? He only likes the Shannon side, which has boobs, so that knocks off the "gay". And their shared body is over 18, so he wouldn't be a pedophile, either. Of course, the truth is that neither of them is any more "real" than the other... but still, George's affections for the "Shannon" persona aren't invalidated by the existence of the "Kanon" persona. It makes a little more sense why Eva wouldn't want George to be with her, though.

You're not wrong about it though. They're the same person. I thought that was confirmed beyond doubt by the end of Book 6? Anyway, it's explained better in Book 7, though it is still pretty stupid.

By the way, there's a major hint about Beatrice's identity that you're overlooking. Remember that Shannon and Kanon had to fight over who's love was stronger? You got how that's because they share the same body and they could only hold down one relationship, right? And you know how Beatrice joined in the battle?

There are several witches that aren't evil. Assuming that we can count Ange and Maria as witches...

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:17 am 
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Mew
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Fair point about Ange and Maria.

As for my comment about George... With Shannon and Kanon as one person, it doesn't matter what gender the personality is. Barring some weird stuff, his/her actual body is only going to be one gender. So if the body is male... And the pedophile bit, while Shannon may be over 18, Kanon is not (it was statted repeatedly that he's younger than Jessica) so if his body is the real one, my statement stands. There had better be an awesome explanation for that. And an ever more awesome one if she/he is Beato as well.

A note on fake deaths, they can be used to solve a lot of mysteries, if you take some liberties with red truth (assuming its timing was off and all that). The main question though is why some people would play dead. In Battler's game, the whole thing was a prank on Erika. In the other games, a prank seems unlikely. Of course, the killer would have every reason to fake his/her death, but there would have had to be multiple people faking in some of the games (such as 5).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Finished #7! The fact that they never explicitly revealed Beato's identity or actually gave the answers to the various murders annoyed me. Not to mention that there wasn't any satisfactory explanation for how Shannon/Kanon keeps switching back and forth without anyone catching on or, if they do, why they don't let on. I mean, even Erika didn't realize they were the same person despite having Detective's Authority. I also wish there could be one episode that doesn't introduce multiple new characters. But anyway, it did explain a lot so I don't have as much to comment on.

The Epitaph
Anyone who could solve that thing on their own is a genius.

Murders and Other Mysteries
When you consider that Beato/Lion had Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and herself (as Shannon/Kanon/etc.) to help and lie as needed, that explains most of the muders, though I think the times when Shannon and Kanon die at seperate times still pose a few problems unless you take a rather liberal view of various dialogue and red truth. There are a few other murders (Nanjo's death in game 3, for example) which are still problematic.

The Timing
From what I can tell, Shannon/Kanon/etc.'s obsession with being furniture happened after learning something about the condition of his/her body (unable to have children, perhaps) and started conflict between his/her multiple personalities (who to love, whether they could love anyone, etc.). Battler's return took place after that had began but before it could be resolved, leading him/her to decide to settle the matter rather spectacularly and violently. Not an especially good reason, but he/she obviously has serious mental issues.

Ange's Truth
Interesting twist that she wasn't actually from game 3. A large portion of game 4 can also be explained by comparing it to this scenario. Talk about disturbing though... I was considering Kyrie as the main villian at one point but still... And what happened to Battler? Did Eva or Kyrie kill him?

Bern
Seriously, can she get any nastier? They did give a partial explanation for it but still...

A Happy Ending
I'm going to be pretty upset if Bern's red truth at the end comes do pass. I'm kinda hoping for a showdown between her and territory lord Battler.

Things I Still Don't Get:
Shannon/Kanon/Yasu/Lion/Beato (Boy or girl? Master of disguise or is everyone playing along? I'm pretty sure there were times when other people were seperately addressing both of them at the same time as well. I really can't picture a good explanation for this.)
Some of the murders (though I think I can explain the majority at this point).
Battler's mother (Kyrie maybe?).


On a side note, I finished the Higurashi anime (all except Kira, since it wasn't fully subbed last I checked). The bit at the end of Kai, with an older Rika (Bern?) changing Takano's fate was odd (and seems like it would undo everything that happened, unless it was in a seperate fragment). If it was Bern, it seems to also be entirely against her character (as shown in Umineko). The way Bern's named was briefly tossed out in Rei was also rather out of the blue. I really wish someone would translate the visual novel, it seems like there should be more details there. The revalation that Hanyu had a daughter was also weird. She acts way too young for that...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:02 am 
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You see, I never saw Yasu as someone who disguised as Kanon and Shannon. Simply they acted as Kanon/Shannon, therefor they were Kanon/Shannon. In the same way (as in Maria's eyes) those who act as Beatrice are Beatrice.

Will's hints are the last hints for the murders, and now you pretty much have all the info there is. EP8 doesn't give anything more, so now we're on equal footing.

At the end of Higurashi Kai, that scene was only the start of Bern, and her first true freedom. Toying around with the possibilities of Fragments outside of the one she was trapped in was only natural at that point. Thousands of years later would most likely lead to the Bern in Umineko.
As for Higurashi Rei, I do believe a fan translated one part of Rei, that one being the important one. I'll see if I can dig that one up.

Believe this one's the one:http://www.4shared.com/zip/AkXbkSJ5/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni_Rei_.html

I lost my copy of Rei, so I can't confirm it yet, but will update you if it is.

Also, as a side note, 07th Expansion's "Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni" has been translated.
http://ronove.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:28 am 
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Mew
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You see, I never saw Yasu as someone who disguised as Kanon and Shannon. Simply they acted as Kanon/Shannon, therefor they were Kanon/Shannon. In the same way (as in Maria's eyes) those who act as Beatrice are Beatrice.


The problem is that Maria is nine years old and the rest of the family is not So I can see Maria thinking someone who acts like Beatrice is possed by Beatrice and therefor is Beatrice. The older cousins and adults, however, aren't going to think that way. Not to mention that Shannon and Kanon are different ages and genders. George obviously considers Shannon to be a girl (he talks about them having kids) while Jessica and her friends are quite positive Kanon is a boy. If one of them was purely imaginary that would be one thing, but we have members of the family clearly adressing both of them, at the same time even. There are just too many problems there...

Quote:
Will's hints are the last hints for the murders, and now you pretty much have all the info there is. EP8 doesn't give anything more, so now we're on equal footing.


They helped, but it would have been nice if Will had actually explained things. Much like Higurashi clearly explained most of the mysteries. Skipping the explanations that late in the game seems lazy. Ditto with Beatrice not being officially unveiled. That really should have happened in game at some point.

Thanks for the links! I don't have a copy of Rei or Higanbana at this point, but I'll save them for future use.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:43 pm 
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"Without love it cannot be seen"

I don't think gender was an issue at all with Jessica. I'm pretty sure Jessica knows all about Yasu, but that doesn't matter at all to her. She introduced Yasu to her friends as Kanon and as a guy, therefor her friends saw Yasu as a guy.
Yasu probably never told George what he/she is, most likely out of fear. George just saw Yasu as the love of his life.
Though mentioning children around Yasu is most definitely one of the triggers to push Yasu to insanity.

As for everyone else, Yasu is Beatrice, the one with all the gold. Paying them all to act along is simple. Yasu paid them all to play along with several things, all as a game for Battler to recall his sin.

Well... all that is still my speculation, but let's see where we can go with this from here. If you have any other theories, or see problems with mine, feel free to share.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Mew
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Going with Will's comment on Lion's gender being ambiguous from an appearance standpoint, I can live with theory on Jessica's school outting with Kanon. As for George and Shannon, unless something official says otherwise, I'm pretty sure that Yasu's true gender is female so that more or less works are well. I can also see Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa playing along, at least after Yasu found the gold and became the true master. The rest of the people...not so much. At some point pretty much everyone addresses Shannon and Kanon seperately, gives them seperate tasks to perform, and the like. Yasu didn't reveal to everyone that he had the gold, so there's no way he's bribing the entire family. There were even cases of this happening in the flashback before Yasu ever found the gold. And there's the whole thing with Jessica being best friends with Shannon while being in love with Kanon, and neither one of them understanding why their loves had to be mutually exclusive during the battle for the broach in game 5. I might be able to write it all off as the illusion of the witch (though that's a rather messy cop-out) or poor editing, but neither is a very satisfactory solution.

If you want to discuss any particular murders or other mysteries, feel free to post a list and I'll give you my thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:56 pm 
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One murder in particular that's been bugging me is EP3's "Who killed Nanjo?"
Shannon and Kanon were declared dead right after the first twilight. Will states that several of the people actually died as they appeared.
Who does this leave open?

I'll leave this here to make it easier: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

Just don't scroll to EP8.

Any murders you want to bring up? I'll be glad to give my theories for them as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Mew
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Ugh, that is the worst one. When you consider Yasu, multiple personalities, and that Nanajo, Genji, and Kumasawa may have helped (along with a bribed family member, perhaps) most of the others can be explained. With Nanjo, I'd either have to say that he was killed by Yasu/Beatrice (who was no longer Shannon or Kanon, sort of side stepping the red truth about their deaths) or it's some trick with the timing (the red truth applied to a different time frame than was implied).

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:08 pm 
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I'd feel cheated if the solution was Yasu/Beato...

Also, got Rei working. Translation works perfectly. Once I read it, I'll explain what the OVA left out.

Oh yes, bit of a warning for EP8. Save before Beato proposes her final riddle to you. You cannot save once the riddle is displayed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:52 pm 
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Mew
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Finished 8.

For the most part, I was happy with it (though early on, Battler's game was annoying me just as much as it did Ange). It wrapped up Ange's story nicely (conspiracy included), had a number of ridiculously epic battles (Umineko's magical fights alone should make the anime worth watching), and tied up other loose ends such as Battler's true mother (I totally called that) and Will and Lion's fate. It also further emphasized my like of Lambda and dislike of Bern, something I think Ryukishi did just to screw with people since everyone would be more inclined to like Bern and hate Lambda when they first appeared.

My only real issues with that series as a whole are:
I wish it actually came out and gave the the answers more of the mysteries and puzzless. I mean, technically, it never even revealed Beato's true identity (it was obvious enough, but still hidden even in the end). The solutions to the murders and the one truth were never revealed either. Despite all the talk about not knowing being best and all that, it still bugs me (and feels a bit like a cop-out).
While it's nice that future Ange got her life together and everyone sorta lived happily ever after in the golden land, I really wanted to see a fragment where everyone actually worked things out and survived (ala Higurashi). With hundreds of thousands of fragments floating around, there had to be at least one with a true happy ending.

I'm not quite done with Umineko yet (I have Tsubasa and the partial patch for it), but I doubt that will expand on any of the above.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:27 am 
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Everyone's main complaint with EP8 was keeping the catbox closed. "If you aren't satisfied, you're a goat."
In an interview, he stated that those who truly have read in between the lines know the truth. Don't know if I can 100% agree with that.

Also, Umineko Tsubasa and Hane are just collections of short sorties that Ryukishi has published on his site while writing the main story. They don't provide extra mystery-wise though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Mew
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Quote:
In an interview, he stated that those who truly have read in between the lines know the truth. Don't know if I can 100% agree with that.


Yeah... You can form some theories for the truth but it's impossible to be sure about some things. Judging from the slideshow when Ange opened the book, I'd say it looked pretty similar to the Ruldof and Kyrie kill everyone fragment that Bern flaunted in EP7, but there's no way to confirm that. Though, when it comes down to it, the One Truth is really only the truth for one single fragment (future Ange's) so I'm not sure how satisfying of a revalation it would have been if the others weren't explained as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:40 pm 
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The lack of a complete soundtrack for Umineko saddens me. But, since all the music for the games is saved as ogg files, I suppose I can make my own...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Yeah, we've converted a lot of them to .mp3 for exporting purposes. I'm sure you could find downloads for them easily, but converting them's easy, too, and you can pick your favorites that way rather than bulk downloading every single song.

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