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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:20 pm 
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And done! I was pretty happy with Matsuribayashi. Finally got a good ending and it wrapped up the last of the plot threads. It would have been nice to find out a bit more about Hanyu's origins (there was a decent bit, but it was all a mix of legends) and who Nomura was (though she wouldn't have been a character that appeared before so I suppose it's not that important), but pretty much everything else was explained. And it actually made me feel kind of bad for Takano, which is suprising since I went into the arc hoping she'd go L5 and scratch her throat out. I was kinda hoping something would happen to Nomura too but at least her faction seemed to be in pretty serious trouble. Overall, it was a good ending. Looking forward to Umineko, though it may be a little while before I get to it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:40 pm 
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I'd wait to see if MangaGamer would translate Higurashi Rei before moving on to Umineko.
You'll get more Hanyuu out of Rei, but Nomura doesn't get anything more than what she got in Matsuribayashi.

Congrats for making it out of the endless June of 1983, the game of Lady Bernkastel and Lady Lamdadelta. The kakera of Rokkenjima in October of 1986 won't leave too many open holes for open speculation, so good luck.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:43 pm 
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I've heard about Rei, and it would be nice if they translate it too. I'll probably play Kanon before Umineko anyway, since I already have it, so that'll give me a bit of time to wait and see.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:41 pm 
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[/Higurashi]

[Umineko]

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"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:20 pm 
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I suppose you've finished it already? Once again then, let's try and avoid spoilers about chapters I haven't played yet. Anyway, I just finished chapter 1 so...

The Murderer
It's really tempting to pin this on Beatrice, but I want to believe there's a human behind it since pinning it on a witch is too easy. I don't have enough info to name a culprit but it was probably one of the people whose body was mutilated beyond recognition and was killed early. So Rudolf, Kyrie, Rhoda, Rosa, or Kinzo. Unless, of course, there's a 19th...

The Gold
Well, there's the one bar. There's probably more on the island somewhere, but the amount in the legend seems excessive.

Maria
She's either taking on Rika's role or crazy. Too early to tell. The fact that part of her body was found clashes with the epilogue text about her going to the golden land, and what's with the notebook page that was found? When did she write that?

Beatrice
Unless I throw out the entire second tea party, she exists, is a witch, and is running a time loop and manipulating events a bit for fun. The why is hard to say. As is how she can be stopped. Whether or not she takes an active role in things is hard to say.

The Roulette and Epitaph
Does Kinzo really believe it or is it some sort of test? Either way, if it's followed perfectly it seems impossible to win.

Long story short...there really isn't enough info to work with yet.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Colly and I have finished up through Book 7. Since the translation for 8 just came out recently, we haven't gotten a chance to read it yet... but most everything is explained in 7 anyway. Except for certain particularly tough murders... Book 1's easy to figure out compared to the others. Reading Higurashi's a pretty big advantage too, since you sort of know what to expect.

The Murderer: I went with the "Ghoda is the culprit!" theory for a long time. I... actually think I still want to stick with that, kinda...

Beatrice: Eh? She doesn't exist, she just "exists". Interpret that however you want. The explanation for why time is looping is actually a bit easier to understand than Higurashi's though.

Epitaph: Lol, Kinzo.

Also Ryukishi seems to think that the most clever could have solved it with only Book 1. Of course, the solution's pretty messed up, so I'd be surprised if anyone got it before 5....

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"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:25 pm 
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How about the howdunnit? I thought the howdunnit was so much more fun to figure out than the who/whydunnit in this series.

The First Twilight: Six people in the locked shed.
The Second Twilight: The couple in the locked room.
The Fourth Twilight: The corpse in the fire
The Fifth Twilight: The lone boy in the boiler room, pierced in the chest
The Sixth-Eighth Twilight: The three corpses accompanied by the singing girl
The Ninth Twilight: The single shot, with the victim's gun still warm

There are no limits on this game, thus your solutions can be simple. However, be aware that later on your theories will be shot down.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:54 pm 
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If you insist...

The First Twilight: Six people in the locked shed.
There are many ways this could have been done. Anyone could get a key easily enough from the servents' room and moved the bodies during the night. As for killing that many people in one go... They could have been poisoned, shot, or killed in any number of ways (the mutilation made difficult to say). Pretty much anyone could be the killer here, though Krauss and Shanon are highly unlikely since enough of their faces was left for a positive ID.

The Second Twilight: The couple in the locked room.
Trickier. I'm going to assume someone snuck in, surprised Eva without her husband noticing (he was in the shower) then went in after him. Assuming there isn't a secret passage, they probably got jury-rigged something to lock either the window or door after they left

The Fourth Twilight: The corpse in the fire
The body wasn't neccessarily Kinzo, but this is another one anyone could have easily done by getting him out of the room, possibly using Battler's theory.

The Fifth Twilight: The lone boy in the boiler room, pierced in the chest
This could have been rigged with some sort of device, but with the opening doors it's quite possible the killer did it himself. If so, that means the killer either faked his own death earlier or is a 19th person, going off of everyone's locations at the time.

The Sixth-Eighth Twilight: The three corpses accompanied by the singing girl
Poison, a gun, and other methods could explain the deaths (followed by excessive bludgeoning). It's quite possible the killer disguised him/herself as Beatrice to psyche the others out and keep Maria out of the way. Why wasn't Maria killed? Possibly to help sell the Beatrice story or because he/she didn't want to kill Maria at all (which would likely point to Rosa as the killer).

The Ninth Twilight: The single shot, with the victim's gun still warm
There's nothing here to say Natsuhi actually shot herself. More likely, she shot, missed, and was shot by the killer who had his own gun.

I really don't think there's enough to go on to name a murderer at this point, other than it was probably one of those initial four I mentioned. In which case, Rudolf seems the least likely, leaving Ghouda (he could have a grudge or want the gold, going from a fancy hotel to private service seems odd too), Rosa (she'd have the easiest time getting Maria on her side and was the furthest from the inheritance), Kyrie (we really don't know much about her), and Kinzo (part of his crazy plan to revive Beatrice?).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Alright, clean and simple theories. No contradictions or logic mistakes this far.
Honestly, once you know the whodunit, the howdunit falls all into place.
Of course, you can also accept that it was magic, but there's no fun in that.
Everything completely changes by Book 2. In fact, you'll get some clarifications of Book 1's murders as well that may force you to revise your theories.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Finally found a little time to finish chapter 2 (and stayed up way too late doing so). And yeah, that really changes thing. Well, let's see what I've got...

Beatrice and the Witches' Game
Unlike Battle, I think that denying Beatrice completely is going too far. Unless you want to throw out a significant portion of the game, there is a witch named Beatrice, she has magical powers, and she needs to complete the ritual in the epitaph in order to regain her full power and/or physical form. However, part of the ritual requires that everyone acknowledge her and her power. Battler (though he dissapointed me for a while late in this chapter) is throwing a wrench in the works and forcing her to use her powers to put everything into a time loop until she gets the ending she wants. At the same time, she really seems to enjoy torturing everyone (though she likely harbors some true feelings for Kinjo). On a related note, do to their conversations with various characters, I'm pretty certain that witch Beatrice and "human" Beatrice are the same person/being.
Meanwhile, you've got two other witches watching Beatrice's game. Bern is obviously either Rika or, more likely, a being created from Rika's power when she was trying to escape her own time loop (she was quite likely the mysterious being talking about game pieces and the like in the last two chapters of Higurashi). Then there's her rival, Lambda. Going off the theory that Bern was created by Rika's powers and desire to change her fate, Lambda was likely created by Takano's misguided quest to become a "god" and keep that fate intact.
On that note, perhaps Beatrice the witch and Beatrice the "human" share that kind of relationship.

Battle and the Time Loop
Are the Battler on Rokkenjima and the one directly fighting Beatrice the same? If so, did he have memories of the previous cycle all the time and just hid his knowledge (like Rika)? Maybe Beatrice pulled the Battler from the first chapter out of time and he's just acting as an observer. The dialogue makes it rather hard to tell.

Red Truth
It's a convenient way to close off a lot of possible theories and guarentee that the looked rooms are really locked. Supposedly Beatrice never breaks the rules, but I'm not 100% sure red truth can be trusted. Especially towards the end when Beatrice started using red for insults, taunts, and even laughter.

The Killer
This chapter really pushes you towards saying Beatrice killed everyone with her magic. Even Battler gave up for a while. That said, it's just too simple of an explanation. Besides, if Beatrice is that powerful, why does she need the ritual anyway? I think that she can manifest herself and manipulate events to a certain extent, perhaps even pull off some small tricks (Maria's candy, perhaps), but I think either the rules of the ritual or her current weakened state prevent her from taking too active a role.
Unlike Battle, I have no problem believing one of the 18 is the killer. Of my top suspect list for the previous chapter, Kinjo (Kinzo? I keep forgetting which spelling it is) and Rosa are the only ones who are still completely viable (as in, he was never definitively dead, at least before the crazy demon party at the end). Not that someone else (Ghoda, Kumasawa?) couldn't have faked their own death, but the lack of facial mutilation would have make it much more difficult. And Rosa's location was accounted for during some of the murders. That said, there could have been multiple killers (or different onces in each chapter) or it could even have been human Beatrice (perhaps she killed everyone without magic) or a 20th person.
Once again, I don't feel confident naming a top suspect but if I had to... "Human" Beatrice (without magic since, one again, that'd be too difficult) is possbile (and tempting so as not to accuse anyone else). Her aside though, top suspects would be Kinjo (he didn't die), Ghoda, Kumasawa, and Nanjo (they would have had a relatively easy time faking their death in both chapters, compared to the others).

Locked Room Murders
Battler broke the first one quite nicely (using a theory I would have put forth if he hadn't). For the others, they're only locked rooms if you both trust red truth and believe that none of the servants are involved. And, even if you accept both of those conditions, Beatrice never stated that the servents were always in control of their master keys. Someone could have potentially pickpocketed a key, used it, and returned it without being noticed.

The Magical Murders
Unlike Battler, we got to see most of the murder scenes and they seemed to have very magical elements to them. Once again though, that seems like far too easy an explanation. Accept that they were killed magically and the only real puzzle left in the game is how to solve the Epitaph and defeat Beatrice. But if magic wasn't involved, you have to come up with some explanation for what was seen which leaves complex illusions (but why go to so much trouble?) or hallucinations. Barring something similar to Hinamizawa syndrome, I'd guess some kind of gas or insect (the butterflies?) caused the people to become delusional.
However, I'm leaning towards declaring the demon party at the end as real. At that point, the ritual is nearly complete and Beatrice is almost back at full power so I'll say she could have done that herself as a grand finale of sorts.

The Servents
If you read the final Episode 2 tips, it lists Genji, Kannon, and Shannon as having been created by Kinjo and having magical powers (which two of them demonstrated in the story). I could write off their powers with my hallucination theory, but that would mean throwing out the information in those tips as well. And if I'm willing to accept that Beatrice as a witch (if the not the killer) and the demon party, it's not much of a stretch to just accept those tips as truth. Though at this point I'm not ready to commit either way on the matter.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Josiah wrote:
Beatrice and the Witches' Game
Unlike Battle, I think that denying Beatrice completely is going too far. Unless you want to throw out a significant portion of the game, there is a witch named Beatrice, she has magical powers, and she needs to complete the ritual in the epitaph in order to regain her full power and/or physical form. However, part of the ritual requires that everyone acknowledge her and her power. Battler (though he dissapointed me for a while late in this chapter) is throwing a wrench in the works and forcing her to use her powers to put everything into a time loop until she gets the ending she wants. At the same time, she really seems to enjoy torturing everyone (though she likely harbors some true feelings for Kinjo). On a related note, do to their conversations with various characters, I'm pretty certain that witch Beatrice and "human" Beatrice are the same person/being.

Nothing wrong with this theory.
Josiah wrote:
Meanwhile, you've got two other witches watching Beatrice's game. Bern is obviously either Rika or, more likely, a being created from Rika's power when she was trying to escape her own time loop (she was quite likely the mysterious being talking about game pieces and the like in the last two chapters of Higurashi).

Since you never got a chance to read/watch Higurashi Rei, then I'll confirm this. Yes, Rika and Bern were indeed once connected. However, Rika severed their connection at the end of Rei.
Josiah wrote:
Then there's her rival, Lambda. Going off the theory that Bern was created by Rika's powers and desire to change her fate, Lambda was likely created by Takano's misguided quest to become a "god" and keep that fate intact.
On that note, perhaps Beatrice the witch and Beatrice the "human" share that kind of relationship.

The theory on Lambda is, indeed, the one most frequently accepted. And you're not off by the two Beatrice's connection, but how exactly are they connected?

Josiah wrote:
Battle and the Time Loop
Are the Battler on Rokkenjima and the one directly fighting Beatrice the same? If so, did he have memories of the previous cycle all the time and just hid his knowledge (like Rika)? Maybe Beatrice pulled the Battler from the first chapter out of time and he's just acting as an observer. The dialogue makes it rather hard to tell.

It's rather vague in this book, but gets clearer with the others. Studio DEEN (the animators for the anime) even got it wrong when interpreting this one at first. I don't think I can say much without revealing it.

Josiah wrote:
Red Truth
It's a convenient way to close off a lot of possible theories and guarentee that the looked rooms are really locked. Supposedly Beatrice never breaks the rules, but I'm not 100% sure red truth can be trusted. Especially towards the end when Beatrice started using red for insults, taunts, and even laughter.

Analyze the red truths. It's not only a weapon for Beatrice. It can help you narrow things down. I'll put the red truths in a separate post just to organize this.
Also, it's your choice whether or not to trust it. At this point, what is to say that Beatrice can't mess with the rules of them?

Josiah wrote:
The Killer
This chapter really pushes you towards saying Beatrice killed everyone with her magic. Even Battler gave up for a while. That said, it's just too simple of an explanation. Besides, if Beatrice is that powerful, why does she need the ritual anyway? I think that she can manifest herself and manipulate events to a certain extent, perhaps even pull off some small tricks (Maria's candy, perhaps), but I think either the rules of the ritual or her current weakened state prevent her from taking too active a role.
Unlike Battle, I have no problem believing one of the 18 is the killer. Of my top suspect list for the previous chapter, Kinjo (Kinzo? I keep forgetting which spelling it is) and Rosa are the only ones who are still completely viable (as in, he was never definitively dead, at least before the crazy demon party at the end). Not that someone else (Ghoda, Kumasawa?) couldn't have faked their own death, but the lack of facial mutilation would have make it much more difficult. And Rosa's location was accounted for during some of the murders. That said, there could have been multiple killers (or different onces in each chapter) or it could even have been human Beatrice (perhaps she killed everyone without magic) or a 20th person.
Once again, I don't feel confident naming a top suspect but if I had to... "Human" Beatrice (without magic since, one again, that'd be too difficult) is possbile (and tempting so as not to accuse anyone else). Her aside though, top suspects would be Kinjo (he didn't die), Ghoda, Kumasawa, and Nanjo (they would have had a relatively easy time faking their death in both chapters, compared to the others).

Nothing wrong with this either. Fake deaths, are indeed, a key to solving this.

Josiah wrote:
Locked Room Murders
Battler broke the first one quite nicely (using a theory I would have put forth if he hadn't). For the others, they're only locked rooms if you both trust red truth and believe that none of the servants are involved. And, even if you accept both of those conditions, Beatrice never stated that the servents were always in control of their master keys. Someone could have potentially pickpocketed a key, used it, and returned it without being noticed.

No contradictions.

Josiah wrote:
The Magical Murders
Unlike Battler, we got to see most of the murder scenes and they seemed to have very magical elements to them. Once again though, that seems like far too easy an explanation. Accept that they were killed magically and the only real puzzle left in the game is how to solve the Epitaph and defeat Beatrice. But if magic wasn't involved, you have to come up with some explanation for what was seen which leaves complex illusions (but why go to so much trouble?) or hallucinations. Barring something similar to Hinamizawa syndrome, I'd guess some kind of gas or insect (the butterflies?) caused the people to become delusional.
However, I'm leaning towards declaring the demon party at the end as real. At that point, the ritual is nearly complete and Beatrice is almost back at full power so I'll say she could have done that herself as a grand finale of sorts.

The explanation for the magic scenes are much easier than that actually. Can't tell you much else though.

Quote:
The Servents
If you read the final Episode 2 tips, it lists Genji, Kannon, and Shannon as having been created by Kinjo and having magical powers (which two of them demonstrated in the story). I could write off their powers with my hallucination theory, but that would mean throwing out the information in those tips as well. And if I'm willing to accept that Beatrice as a witch (if the not the killer) and the demon party, it's not much of a stretch to just accept those tips as truth. Though at this point I'm not ready to commit either way on the matter.

This right here is actually a very valuable hint that a lot of people tend to overlook. Keep this one in mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
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The red truths for "Turn of the Golden Witch"
    When I speak the truth, I will use red.
    Everything I speak in red is the truth
    Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door (Refers to the six murders in the chapel.)
    Only one key to the chapel exists
    It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
    When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
    Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
    This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel (This morning refers to the morning of the second day.)
    The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
    The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
    The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 12: A Suspect.)
    there are absolutely no types of hidden doors (The location in discussion refers to Jessica's room.)
    This door is the only way in or out
    The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant
    the window is locked from the inside
    Kanon was killed in this room
    When locked, entry is not possible by any means
    No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
    Kanon was killed in this room (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 13: Wolves and Sheep Puzzle. This text refers back to Statement 16, in the same context.)
    There are no hidden doors in this room (This text refers back to Statement 12, in the same context.)
    There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window (This text refers back to Statement 13 and Statement 15, in the same context.)
    There are no hidden doors (Used by Battler. This text refers back to Statement 20, in the same context.)
    [Those are] kept in the key box in center of the servants' room (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 14: Devil's Proof. The location in discussion refers to the servants' room.)
    [There are several keys to the servants' room, but] all of those are inside the key box
    Entry or exit is impossible except for the single door and single window
    And those were both locked
    The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked
    it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key
    No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
    When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
    [Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
    Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
    No one is hiding
    No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key
    Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside
    You are incompetent[!]
    hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi[!!]
    Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
    If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved
    With my power, any kind of closed room can be created or destroyed[!!]
    I'll make you my favorite furniture
    I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes
    *cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahyahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha
    There are only 5 master keys
    There are only 5 master keys
    there are only 5 master keys
    I keep my promises (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 15: Fleeting Resistance.)
    Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual (In this case, usual refers to the closed room scenarios prior.)
    The door and the windows were locked from the inside
    There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
    Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off
    Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
    And let me say this, the parlor's the same
    The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room
    So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:50 pm 
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I really do wish Manga Gamer would release a translation of Rei. Maybe I should just watch the anime...

A few of those red truth last statements aren't statements. You've got a demand and some promises in there, not to mention the laughter, which is why I'm somewhat suspicious of red truth.

My theories for the magical murder scenes:
Hallucinations
Illusions / Magic Tricks
Beatrice screwing with the narration to throw the player off track
Actual magic (too easy an explanation)

Top theories for the locked rooms:
One of the servants is the killer
Someone stole a master key from a servant and then returned it
Red truth can't be trusted

I'll hold off on the connections between the two (one?) Beatrices for now.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to starting on the next chapter.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:28 pm 
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I finished chapter 3. Wow... Towards the end, I had pretty much fallen for Beato's trick. And then all those revalations and plot twists... I almost feel like it should have been an answer arc... Except that the fact that everything was part of Beato's plan invalidated a lot of it. Anyway, in no particular order...

Battler:
Looks like he's the Battler from the first game, removed from time to serve as Beato's opponent. As such, he doesn't have a direct connection to the Battler in each subsequent game...more or less (there's a couple instances where the line seems to blur a bit). I almost want to say that he's actually Batter's witch (or the male equivalent) but that's probably going too far.

Magic:
Virgilia's two worls explanation works. As I understand it, Rokkenjima is on the edge between the normal world and the magic world. As such, there are two sets of explanations for every event, oen for each world. Battler (and us) are mostly shown the magic versions of events since they're what Beato wants Battler to believe. However, both versions are valid until Rokkenjima is either fully consigned to the magic world (by Beatrice's victory) or returned to the human world (by Battler's victory). I suppose there could be another explanation, especially since Virgilia didn't end up being as trustworthy as she first seemed, but for now it's the best explanation by far.

Virgilia:
Her tip text and her actions paint her as a good endless witch...right up until the end when she gets that crazy look and tries to make Battler sign the agreement. Was she working with Beato all along? Does she just not care who wins? What kind of witch is she really? Nothing to do but see how she acts in future chapters.

EVA-Beatrice:
Going by what I've pieced together about how witches are born, her existence seems reasonable. But was her finding the gold and temporarily becoming the golden witch part of Beato's plan all along or did Beato just roll with it? I suppose it doesn't matter much either way, but I'm thinking Beato set the entire thing up. On the subject of EVA-Beatrice though, what happened to her after Beato denied her existence? Was she destroyed completely (leaving only human Eva) or will she be popping up again later?

The Murders and the Killer
Eva as the murderer easily solves a very large portion of the deaths but leaves a few problems. First up, the first twilight. It seems unlikely (though not impossible) for Eva to have carried it out. And that leaves no explanation for the locked rooms. I'm going to go with Battler's theory that one of the people killed in the first twilight killed the others and then died via accident or suicide. Conveniently, that means most of my top suspects are still valid. But that would mean there are multiple killers. Which, when it comes down to it, has to be the case since it would be nearly impossible for Eva to have been killer in the first two games (in both, she was definitively killed fairly early on). But, Higurashi had different killers in each chapter aside from the true villian (Takano), so I see no reason why that can't be the case here. Nanjo's death still poses a problem though since, if you believe red truth, it sounds completely impossible (he faced and was directly killed by another human despite the fact that only three other people were alive at the time and none of them had anything to do with it). I really have nothing there... I did, however, notice that, taken one way, Eva-Beatrice's red truth barrage seems to rule out the existence of witches (only humans were involved in the muders and there are only 18 humans on the island).

The Game:
Why don't Bern and Lambda show up in the tea room with Beato, Battler, and the rest mid game? It almost seems like there's three levels to the game. First is Rokkenjima, the actual murders. Second is the Beato/Battler game where the two of them hang out in the tea room, observe the events on Rokkenjima, and trade challenges. Third would be the other tea room where Beato and Lambda are competing with Bern. But why keep the two tea rooms seperate?

Witch and Furniture Death:
Virgilia was killed (in a ridiculously epic battle) yet popped up in the tea room shortly after. Two of the stakes were killed (Rudolph and Kyrie were surprisingly awesome, BTW) as well and Beato came extremely close to being killed but they were all just fine later on. Are witches and furniture not affected by deaths that happen in level one (Rokkenjima) of the game or was everyone just revived via endless magic.

Beato's Trick:
I wasn't expecting Beato to pull a Takano and morph into a sympathetic character but it was done very well. The fact that she faked the entire thing though... Definately a spectacular and truly evil reversal.

Human Beatrice:
A young Rosa found human Beatrice in a hidden mansion and accidentally caused her death. According to Beato, she had been imprisoned in that body by Kinzo after her first body died. But is that really the case? Perhaps that Beatrice was a normal human who, like Eva, created a witch. Though, if Kinzo could "create" the servants (still undecided there) it's not hard to believe he could create a humonculous to trap Beato. To toss out another theory, maybe Kinzo actually made a contract with Virgilia (the first Beatrice) and human Beatrice was their child.

Bern's Piece:
It's about time Bern did something. I'm looking forward to seeing how Ange and Battler do on a team, and what skills Ange-Beatrice will bring to the table as a witch. Red truth, perhaps?

Lambda
You know, I thought that she seemed too childlike and innocent for Takano's witch. Her actually being nasty and cunning wasn't any real surprise but the fact that she made Beatrice a witch and set everything up to take down Bern... That came out of left field but it much more in line with Takano's character. But that raises an interesting question. If Lambda was the one who made Beato a witch, what about Virgilia? Wasn't she the one who taught Beato magic and gave her her title? Unless Virgilia actually is Lambda in disguise...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:56 am 
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Blaziken
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Josiah wrote:
Towards the end, I had pretty much fallen for Beato's trick.

And then we all raged at our computer.

Josiah wrote:
Battler:
Looks like he's the Battler from the first game, removed from time to serve as Beato's opponent. As such, he doesn't have a direct connection to the Battler in each subsequent game...more or less (there's a couple instances where the line seems to blur a bit). I almost want to say that he's actually Batter's witch (or the male equivalent) but that's probably going too far.

You aren't too off at all with that reasoning.

Josiah wrote:
Magic:
Virgilia's two worls explanation works. As I understand it, Rokkenjima is on the edge between the normal world and the magic world. As such, there are two sets of explanations for every event, oen for each world. Battler (and us) are mostly shown the magic versions of events since they're what Beato wants Battler to believe. However, both versions are valid until Rokkenjima is either fully consigned to the magic world (by Beatrice's victory) or returned to the human world (by Battler's victory). I suppose there could be another explanation, especially since Virgilia didn't end up being as trustworthy as she first seemed, but for now it's the best explanation by far.

Nothing else to state here. Understanding magic is one of the keys to understanding this game. You get really close by this reasoning.

Josiah wrote:
Virgilia:
Her tip text and her actions paint her as a good endless witch...right up until the end when she gets that crazy look and tries to make Battler sign the agreement. Was she working with Beato all along? Does she just not care who wins? What kind of witch is she really? Nothing to do but see how she acts in future chapters.

Virgilia is who she is. She was, indeed, involved with the creation of the Golden Witch Beatrice.

Josiah wrote:
EVA-Beatrice:
Going by what I've pieced together about how witches are born, her existence seems reasonable. But was her finding the gold and temporarily becoming the golden witch part of Beato's plan all along or did Beato just roll with it? I suppose it doesn't matter much either way, but I'm thinking Beato set the entire thing up. On the subject of EVA-Beatrice though, what happened to her after Beato denied her existence? Was she destroyed completely (leaving only human Eva) or will she be popping up again later?

EVA-Beatrice significance was to help give hints about the birth of a witch. I hope you analyzed that well.

Josiah wrote:
The Murders and the Killer
Eva as the murderer easily solves a very large portion of the deaths but leaves a few problems. First up, the first twilight. It seems unlikely (though not impossible) for Eva to have carried it out. And that leaves no explanation for the locked rooms. I'm going to go with Battler's theory that one of the people killed in the first twilight killed the others and then died via accident or suicide. Conveniently, that means most of my top suspects are still valid. But that would mean there are multiple killers. Which, when it comes down to it, has to be the case since it would be nearly impossible for Eva to have been killer in the first two games (in both, she was definitively killed fairly early on). But, Higurashi had different killers in each chapter aside from the true villian (Takano), so I see no reason why that can't be the case here. Nanjo's death still poses a problem though since, if you believe red truth, it sounds completely impossible (he faced and was directly killed by another human despite the fact that only three other people were alive at the time and none of them had anything to do with it). I really have nothing there... I did, however, notice that, taken one way, Eva-Beatrice's red truth barrage seems to rule out the existence of witches (only humans were involved in the muders and there are only 18 humans on the island).

Who killed Nanjo is still the #1 mystery that I haven't even been able to 100% figure out yet. Evatrice's reds may have been well structured, but there is a bit a trickery inside of it. Once you see past that, some gaps are left open to fill in the rest. However, a certain other moment shot down my top theories...

Josiah wrote:
The Game:
Why don't Bern and Lambda show up in the tea room with Beato, Battler, and the rest mid game? It almost seems like there's three levels to the game. First is Rokkenjima, the actual murders. Second is the Beato/Battler game where the two of them hang out in the tea room, observe the events on Rokkenjima, and trade challenges. Third would be the other tea room where Beato and Lambda are competing with Bern. But why keep the two tea rooms seperate?

And now it pieces together.
Why are the two rooms separate? Bern and Lambda aren't the players. They're just observing the game with some little interaction.

Josiah wrote:
Witch and Furniture Death:
Virgilia was killed (in a ridiculously epic battle) yet popped up in the tea room shortly after. Two of the stakes were killed (Rudolph and Kyrie were surprisingly awesome, BTW) as well and Beato came extremely close to being killed but they were all just fine later on. Are witches and furniture not affected by deaths that happen in level one (Rokkenjima) of the game or was everyone just revived via endless magic.

You're getting close to understanding the levels. Honestly, I forget if the terminology for everything was placed on these levels to clarify everything by this book or not. I'll guarantee, you'll understand by the end of EP4.

Josiah wrote:
Beato's Trick:
I wasn't expecting Beato to pull a Takano and morph into a sympathetic character but it was done very well. The fact that she faked the entire thing though... Definately a spectacular and truly evil reversal.

ahaha.wav
Can you expect any less from a witch?

Josiah wrote:
Human Beatrice:
A young Rosa found human Beatrice in a hidden mansion and accidentally caused her death. According to Beato, she had been imprisoned in that body by Kinzo after her first body died. But is that really the case? Perhaps that Beatrice was a normal human who, like Eva, created a witch. Though, if Kinzo could "create" the servants (still undecided there) it's not hard to believe he could create a humonculous to trap Beato. To toss out another theory, maybe Kinzo actually made a contract with Virgilia (the first Beatrice) and human Beatrice was their child.

You are close. Very close. Right line of thinking so far.

Josiah wrote:
Bern's Piece:
It's about time Bern did something. I'm looking forward to seeing how Ange and Battler do on a team, and what skills Ange-Beatrice will bring to the table as a witch. Red truth, perhaps?

She... disappointingly does little. I'll just throw that there to get that out of the way.

Josiah wrote:
Lambda
You know, I thought that she seemed too childlike and innocent for Takano's witch. Her actually being nasty and cunning wasn't any real surprise but the fact that she made Beatrice a witch and set everything up to take down Bern... That came out of left field but it much more in line with Takano's character. But that raises an interesting question. If Lambda was the one who made Beato a witch, what about Virgilia? Wasn't she the one who taught Beato magic and gave her her title? Unless Virgilia actually is Lambda in disguise...

A bit of both granted Beato magic.
It is implied (in some extra material) that Lambda was the one who granted Takano's wish to become god back when she was a child.

I think the thing to discuss overall is what is your idea of how magic and witches are born? This part is really vital to the final solution.


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